Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 23:46:09 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v111.n023 -------------- 001 - fred smith - Re: No Knead bread 003 - Mike Avery Subject: Re: No Knead bread Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 07:52:30 -0400 >--------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v111.n022.4 --------------- > >From: "Haldas" >Subject: No Knead bread >Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 22:25:36 -0400 > >I've been baking this bread for some time and recently have >experienced some trouble. Initially I used only Bread or All >Purpose flour. Lately I have changed to include 25% rye flour. The >bread turns out more dense. It does not grow as much during the 18 >hours rise. The bread also does not gain much in size during the >baking process. Any suggestions on what I may be doing wrong to cause this? > >Gene The "problem" is that you're adding 25% rye flour! :) Rye flour contains very little gluten. without enough gluten, the dough won't hold its bubbles of gas that the yeast produces, and so it either doesn't rise enough, or the bubbles are too weak and some of them will burst, letting the dough fall. You may wish to try adding some vital wheat gluten to the mix, to strengthen the dough. You may also find it helpful to experiment with reducing the rye, somewhat, in addition. Fred Smith The Lord is like a strong tower. Those who do what is right can run to him for safety. Proverbs 18:10 (niv) --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v111.n023.2 --------------- From: "C. B." Subject: Re: No Knead bread Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 13:04:43 +0100 You are not doing anything wrong at all. Rye does not have anywhere near as much gluten as wheat so there isn't as much elasticity in the dough and fewer/shorter gluten strands to trap the gas - denser bread, less rise. You can buy gluten powder to add to your rye doughs to get fluffier bread if you like the taste of rye. I do not have much experience with this - I'm Swedish and like my rye breads traditionally dense. : --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v111.n023.3 --------------- From: Mike Avery Subject: Re: sourdough rise Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 11:18:37 -0500 Jeffrey Gerlach : >Does sourdough normally rise more than 2X? I poked the dough and it >appeared ready to bake, but the baked loaf was very dense on the >bottom, which I think was an indication that it could have used more >time. Any thoughts? You need to learn to trust yourself. How does the dough feel? Has it risen as far as it should? As far as it can? Touch the dough. Some people gently poke the dough with their fingertips and see how the dough reacts - the poke should be gentle and no more than 1/4 to 1/2 inch deep. If the loaf collapses, it has risen to far. Bake the remaining loaves right away. If the indentions remain in the loaf, it is probably over risen and needs to be baked without delay. If the indentions slowly spring back, it's probably close to right. If the indentions spring back, the dough isn't ready yet. Other people gently lay their hand on the dough to feel the tension of the dough. This is less likely to lead to a collapsed loaf than poking it. Both methods require practice. The dough acted, or felt, like this and the loaf turned out like that. Let's let the loaf go further, or not as far, next time and see what the results are. If you are looking for a loaf that opens gloriously when you slash and bake it, the oven spring that allows that to happen occurs when the loaf is somewhat under risen. When a loaf is fully, or over, risen you won't get much, if any, oven spring. The French feel that an excess of oven spring indicates the loaf should have been allowed to rise longer - a lot of a bread's taste comes from fermentation, or rising, and an under risen loaf has been short changed in that regard. What's too much? What's too little? It's a matter of taste. Your taste. Some sourdoughs will rise 4x. However, determining when a dough has doubled, trippled or quadrupled can be tricky. With a loaf in a pan, things are fairly straight forward. When it rises from 2 to 4" high, it's probably doubled. With a free form loaf, things aren't as simple. Most free form loaves tend to spread out as well as rise up. So, there is movement in three dimensions, not just along the vertical axis. If the dough is twice as long, twice as wide and twice as high, it's 8x larger.... give or take a bit. Some people put a dough ball in a graduated measuring cup. When it goes from 2 to 4 ounces, it has doubled. When it hits 6, it's tripled. When it fills the 8oz cup, it's quadrupled. To some extent, the bottom of the loaf will be denser than the top. The bottom of the loaf is supporting the top and being compressed by it. The top is free to fly away (please excuse the poetic license). The question is one of degree. Loaf forming can also be a factor, but this note is getting too long already. >Does anyone know what internal temperature a sourdough loaf should >reach? My loaves both registered 190-195F but turned out to be a bit >too moist, i.e. they could have used more oven time. You have to learn to trust yourself. There's no divine edict that bread should be 205F internally, or 195F. Typically, bakers suggest that at sea level 205 is a good temperature to shoot for. At the altitude where my house was when I put most of sourdoughhome.com together (7,703 feet above sea level), 195F was more appropriate since water boiled at 198F. The point of measuring - and to bake at home - is to be able to consistently make a bread that YOU like. Not someone who wrote a book on baking, not a French expert who will never see or taste your bread, not someone who put together a web site, not the people who hang out in bread oriented mailing lists, news groups, or forums. But YOU. If you think the bread is too wet, then bake it longer and to a higher temperature. Here's another tidbit. Different breads can be done at different internal temperatures. Keep notes. "I baked the 1 1/2 pound loaf of white sourdough bread for 45 minutes at 375F, it had an internal temperature of 195. The crumb was too moist". Use that information to track where you want to be and your approach to where you want to be. Maybe 450F would work better for you. Maybe 210F as an internal temperature would work better for you. It's your bread. You get to decide. Really. (Similarly, it isn't your recipe until you change it.) >I was very pleased with the bread regardless, although it wasn't >very "sour". Am I correct in thinking that the starter will become >more sour over time, and that my not-very-sour loaf was due to a >newborn starter? There are many, many factors affecting the sourness of a loaf of sourdough bread. While you can make sour loaves with Carl's 1847 Oregon Trail starter, it isn't easy as this is a fast acting and fairly mild starter. Here are some factors - Thickness of the starter - thinner (more watery) starters tend to be more sour than thicker (firmer) ones The flour - flours with more ash (mineral content) tend to make breads that are more sour Rise time - the longer the rise, the greater the sour The starter - some starters are more sour than others. Hope this helps, Mike --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v111.n023.4 --------------- From: Cadillack9@aol.com Subject: Crumbly bread Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 13:00:06 -0400 (EDT) I can make great tasting bread in the bread machine and in the food processor. I don't like the texture, however. The texture is never like soft "pully" commercial bread or bakery bread. How does one achieve that texture? Mar --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v111.n023.5 --------------- From: "Sonia Martinez" Subject: Fruit breads recipes Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 08:30:27 -1000 >From: "Phyllis O'Neil" >I think that "Warm Bread and Honey Cake" had at least one recipe for >a Caribean fruit bread (but I returned it to the library >already). Here's a link: > >http://www.amazon.com/Warm-Bread-Honey-Cake-Baking/dp/1566567920 Thank you, Phyllis. I will check it out at our library Sonia --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v111.n023.6 --------------- From: "Stephen Blumm" Subject: Kitchen Aid Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 14:31:21 -0400 Regarding stand mixers I have been using a Kitchen Aid, the larger size, for about ten years. I use it twice a week for breads that include 270 grams of flour in the starter (often part rye or whole wheat) and another 650 grams of flour in the dough, for a total of 920 grams or more than two pounds. I also use 270 and 450 grams of water or other liquid (most often buttermilk or cider as part of my liquid). My first KA mixer lasted for four or five years, when it broke Kitchen Aid replaced it for free. The second one broke earlier this year. KA repaired it for about $80 and promised future lifetime repairs for free. On the whole Kitchen Aid Customer Support has been very good. When my mixer broke last year I decided to try a mixer from the local Viking store, thinking I would upgrade in line with comments made by people on this list. I did not find the new mixer to be enough of an improvement to justify the cost, so I decided to save the money, return it, and have the KA repaired. I believe I have the six quart KA mixer but I am not sure of the exact measurement, though it is their largest. Thought I would add this to the discussion. Stephen Blumm Valley Forge, Pennsylvania --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v111.n023.7 --------------- From: Deborah605@aol.com Subject: Re: Mike Avery's Stretch and Fold Method Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 01:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Haven't been baking much due to a lot of RA pain in my hands while trying to knead; Mike's method is terrific! The loaf is high and beautiful, the aroma and taste irresistible. Thank you so much Mike, it will be fun to try out different breads this way. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v111.n023.8 --------------- From: mkstmn@aol.com Subject: Equivalent in cups of 6 oz. yogurt Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 06:06:21 -0400 (EDT) I was looking over a recipe last night for cranberry oatmeal muffins. All measurements are in cups, teaspoons, tablespoons, except for the yogurt - which calls for 6 ounces. I do have an ancient scale which isn't all that accurate. Would it be 3/4 cup? I almost always have yogurt in my fridge, but it's usually a quart container. [later...] I answered part of my question when I went to the grocery store today and discovered those small, individual containers of yogurt contain 6 oz. That explains why that was the only ingredient listed by weight. Now, I'm going to have to buy one of them to see how much goes into a measuring cup - unless someone on the list has already done that???? Marsha in southern Illinois [[Editor's note: the recipe is v110.n011.6 in the archives. Searching for "cranberry oatmeal" in the digest search found it.]] [[Editor's note: 6 oz of yogurt is very close to 6 fluid oz - I measured it. In general, if it's wet enough to spread out when given the chance, it's close enough to water to assume 1 avoirdupois ounce = 1 fluid ounce and 1 liter = 1 kg.]] --------------- END bread-bakers.v111.n023 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2011 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved