Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:49:29 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v107.n004 -------------- 001 - Judi9826@aol.com - Re: adding sourdough starter to no-knead bead 002 - "Bill Heffron" Subject: French Bakeries Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:46:29 -0600 I'm planning a trip to France and hope to visit some bakeries. Within this audience are their bakers who have traveled France and could share an experience or porvide a recommendation? Most of our time will be just outside Paris we hope to visit Normandy and Provence as well. WmJ --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n004.3 --------------- From: LJWinsk@aol.com Subject: Temperature of no-knead bread? Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:46:34 EST What should the internal temperature of the "No Kneed Bread" be when it comes out of the oven? Thanks for your help. Len --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n004.4 --------------- From: LynBoo@aol.com Subject: No knead bread Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:55:14 EST Hi, I tried the recipe, following the ingredients exactly and it did not work for me. The dough never really rose after about 19 hours but I optimistically put it in the hot (preheated) pan (all I had was an aluminum dutch oven). I baked it as described and it was fairly flat and hard. Maybe I put in too much water (not intentionally) or the water wasn't warm enough? Please give me some advice, as I've read all the other peoples' postings on this. Thanks, Lynne lynboo@aol.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n004.5 --------------- From: "Tom" Subject: Yeasty Issues Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 17:15:31 -0700 I want to try to clarify some of the issues pertaining to yeast. First, there are dozens of Genus of yeast, hundreds of species, and thousands of subspecies or strains. All regular commercial baker's yeast (i.e., not specialty yeasts or sourdough starters) that you buy, are the species Saccharomyces cerevisiae. There are numerous subspecies or strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae (there are hundreds, and likely thousands, of different strains). In commercial production, different strains are used for each of the following products: 1) Compressed Yeast [this includes liquid yeast cream, block and crumbled] 2) Active Dry Yeast 3) Instant Dry Yeast [in the USA brand names include Fleischmann's RapidRise and Bread Machine yeast and Red Star's (now SAF) Quick-Rise and Bread Machine yeast] To complicate matters each company that manufactures these products has their own patented strain of yeast. The patents on Compressed yeasts have long expired as have most of the Active Dry Yeast patents. There currently is much patent activity in the Instant Dry Yeast category. Here, each manufacturer has their own patented strain and composition. They are creating many specialty yeasts now for specific applications. For instance, a 1998 patent titled "Instant dry yeast for use in frozen dough-baking process" uses "a biologically pure culture of Saccharomyces cerevisiae P-572, FERM BP-6148" - this is the patent for this particular Instant Dry Yeast strain. This Instand Dry Yeast has superior properties for use in frozen doughs (the yeast degrade slower and thus the frozen dough has a longer shelf life). The manufacturing process (to produce the yeast you buy in grocery stores) is identical for all three strains of yeast (Compressed, Active and Instant) until the final stages. The indredients used in the manufacturing steps are: the seed yeast culture, water, molases, different minerals and vitamins, and oxygen. In the end stages different processing aids are added that include: salt (yes, sodium chloride), oils, emulsyfing agents and other processing aids. These processing aids help in the drying and extruding steps AND ARE NOT ADDED TO HELP IN BREAD BAKING OR ANY DOUGH HANDLING PROCESS. These processing aids are in such small amounts that they do not need to claim them on the packaging label. Some specific items: Mike Avery wrote: >I have to disagree here. In the 1970's I read James Beard's "Beard >On Bread" and he said that active dry yeast was reliable enough that >proofing the yeast was a waste of time, and that he neither did that >nor recommended it. In general this is true, if you are using fresh Active Dry Yeast and you go through your supply rapidly, you do not have to check that it is still alive (i.e., proofing). However, if you did not store your Active Dry Yeast properly or it is just old you may want to check its activity by proofing before you make any bread. Note: If you are uncertain about your Instant Dry Yeast you can use the same technique to proof it to see if it is still alive. Larry T wrote: >Thank you for your clarification about the types of yeast. I was >sure I had read somewhere that RapidRise was the same as instant, >but I couldn't find the source, after reading otherwise on this list. You are correct Fleischmann's RapidRise yeast IS an Instant Dry Yeast. JH wrote: >Thanks to Maggie Glezer for her very informative comments on active >dry and instant yeast in bread-bakers.v107.n002.3. As she says, with >the appropriate volume adjustments, the home baker can substitute >active dry for instant (and vice versa) with equal results. You can substitute fresh Compressed Yeast, Active Dry Yeast and Instant Dry Yeast in any situation. The only real difference when used in baking is the number of viable yeast cells per gram. Compressed Yeast contains about 70% water vs 7% for Dry Yeast. The granuels of Instant Dry Yeast are smaller then the granuels of Active Dry Yeast and thus you can get more viable cells in the same volume. The formula for substituting is as follow: 100% Compressed Yeast = 40-50% Active Dry Yeast = 33% Instant Dry Yeast. or 100% Instant Dry Yeast = 1.2 - 1.5 times Active Dry Yeast = 3 times Compressed Yeast >Basically, the cell membrane for instant yeast is thinner than that >for active dry. This allows instant yeast to absorb water readily so >it does not need to be dissolved in water. I have not read or found any articles that discuss the cell membranes size (thinner in Instant Dry Yeast vs Active), can you share with us your source for this statement? >Basically, the cell membrane for instant yeast is thinner than that >for active dry. This allows instant yeast to absorb water readily so >it does not need to be dissolved in water. The problem of dissolving Instant Dry Yeast (and Active) in water is discussed in a yeast patent. It reads: "A problem encountered with Active Dry Yeast and Instant Dry Yeast is the leakage of yeast solids from the cells upon rehydration. This results in a loss of gassing power or a loss of capacity to produce ethanol. The various methods of adding yeast and mixing dough differ from country to country. Although for the more porous Instant Dry Yeast the dry yeast should be mixed with flour before water is added, it often happens that the dry yeast is suspended in water together with other soluble additions before flour is added. Additives such as sugar, calcium propionate and salt affect yeast performance, as does the temperature of the water employed. In countries with warm climates or where bakers use high speed mixers with extra heat input, the water is cooled, for example by adding ice, to obtain proper dough temperatures after mixing. Under these conditions instant dry yeast comes in direct contact with the chilled water, thus reducing the yeast performance substantially. In U.S. Pat. No. 4,764,472 this problem is partly solved by the incorporation of 0.1 to 2% by weight of locust bean gum, gum ghatti and mixtures thereof, which prevents a loss of activity when water of about 20 degree C. is added. However, in practice, water of 15 degree C. or less, even sometimes a water/ice mixture, is used and under these circumstances, the activity after rehydration is extremely low." This problem really only affects those that are adding Instant Dry Yeast to very cold water (and usually are large commercial bakeries). The resulting loss of gassing power is probably so small home bakers would never notice it. I was surprised to note a container of Fleischmann's RapidRise Bread Machine yeast has the following statements: "Avoid direct contact with liquids and salts." and then a little below says: "Actived Dry Yeast Recipies: Combine 1/4 cup warm water and 1 tsp sugar. Add bread machine yeast [yes, this is the RapidRise Instant Yeast] and stir to dissolve. No other changes are needed." - So much for avoiding liquids...lol. >can damage or kill some yeast cells, as can direct contact with salt >in the dough. This is why recipes often recommend that instant yeast >be mixed in the flour first, then salt is mixed in and then the >liquid is added. The salt action on yeast has been greatly exaggerated. Dry salt in direct contact with dry yeast does NOT kill the yeast nor does it kill the yeast in the dough. Short term contact such as the time your ingredients are sitting together in a bowl even if it is overnight is not a problem. If you have any doubt do the following. Using whatever method you use to proof your yeast, set up this experiment: Using two identical containers (drinking glasses work well), in one empty glass place just the yeast (amount recomended for proofing). In the other glass place the same amount of yeast PLUS the amount of salt that you add to one loaf of bread. Let the glasses sit overnight at room temperature. The next day add the same amount of warm water to each glass and stir in 1 tsp table sugar. Both glasses will foam up an identical amount proving that contact with salt is not a problem for home bakers. The conditions under which salt and yeast react detrimentally are not experienced by the home baker. If a home baker made two identical loafs - one with salt and the other without salt - they would notice absolutely no difference in the process, the feel of the dough, the volume expansion during proofing, rise times, or in the appearance of the finished loaf. They may taste the difference but they would not feel or see a difference. The only condition I can imagine is if a home baker wanted to store their yeast and salt together for a long period. In this case, over a period of weeks and/or months the salt will extract the remaining 7% water in the dry yeast - completely desiccating it and thus killing the yeast cells. This process would take weeks and months before all the yeast cells were killed - not minutes or days. >ADDITIVES IN INSTANT DRY YEAST: I buy my dry yeast in one-pound >packages. I notice that the ingredients listed on the package >include, besides yeast, ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and an emulsifier >(though both additives are in small amounts). My packages of SAF >Instant Yeast and Fleischmann's Instant Yeast both list the >following ingredients: yeast, sorbitan monosterate (the emulsifier), and >ascorbic acid. In contrast, whenever I've purchased Active Dry yeast >(usually Fleischmann's) the package ingredients always just say >yeast (nothing else). In the case of Vitamin C, although vitamin C is a dough enhancer, these companies are not adding it to their products to improve your dough - they add it to the yeast (especially Instant Dry Yeast) because it is also an anti-oxidant. Most, if not all, of the dry yeast containers are packaged under an atmosphere of nitrogen - the intent is to displace air which contains oxygen. Oxygen will eventually kill the yeast cells - it will oxidize them. It is the same process when you see that fresh steak start to turn color - the meat is oxidizing. Most containers say to use the dry yeast within 6 months of opening. Vitamin C acts as an oxygen scavenger thus giving the product a 6 month recommended use period. Many Instant Dry Yeast products contain or will start to contain variations of the chemical Sorbitan Monosterate. Again, this chemical is not added to enhance your dough in any way but is added as a rehydration-controlling agent. From a yeast patent is the following: "In EP-A0616030, Instant Dry Yeast is improved by adding a rehydration-controlling agent. A large variety of rehydrating controlling agents is suggested among which are esters of fatty acids (e.g. fatty acid esters of sorbitan such as sorbitan monolaureate, monopalmitate, monostearate or monooleate). Addition of sorbitan monostearate or glycerine monostearate resulted in an improved gassing activity of the Instant Dry Yeast when the yeast is rehydrated before being mixed with other dough ingredients such as flour, water, and salt. The disadvantage of these agents is that, although some improvement in the (cold) water resistance of the yeast is obtained, still too much gassing power of the Instant Dry Yeast is lost when the Instant Dry Yeast is subjected to rehydration." Bob the Tarheel Baker wrote: >No! No! No! Rapid-rise yeast is not the same as Instant >Yeast. RRY has chemicals added to it to make it rise in half the >time it takes for active dry yeast and instant yeast to rise. In >addition, the yeast cells die quicker so there is really just enough >oomph for one rise. Rapid-rise should not be used by artisan bread >bakers who believe long, slow rises contribute both flavor and structure Sorry Bob, RapidRise yeast is Fleichmann's brand of Instant Dry Yeast. You are misinformed, RapidRise yeast does NOT contain any chemicals that are added to "make it rise in half the time for active dry yeast and instant yeast to rise." The last time I saw one of the individual packets of RapidRise yeast the only ingredient listed was yeast. It did not contain vitamin c (whose chemical name is ascorbic acid) as the individual packets are intended for a one time use. Thus, they do not need to add an anti-oxidant since it is intended the contents would all be used at one time. The 4 oz containers of Fleischmann's RapidRise list yeast and ascorbic acid as the only ingredients. Please share with us any articles that back up your claim that Instant Dry Yeast "cells die quicker" - All strains of yeast, including Instant Dry Yeast, go through normal cell growth and reproduction as long as they have water, food, oxygen and the right temperature. In bread dough they have all these ingredients. RapidRise yeast can certainly be used by artisan bread bakers. You simply use an amount equivalent to the amount of Active Dry Yeast or Compressed Yeast. It is an easy substitution and you keep all other aspects of your recipe and process the same. Your dough will not rise faster - you can use all the same slow rise techniques that contribute to flavor and structure. There are no magical ingredients in RapidRise yeast. The name may be misleading but it is simply a tradename. One source states that is takes 20,000,000,000 yeast cells to make 1 gram (yes, that is 20 billion). I do not know if that is in their fully hydrated stage or in their dried state. The only real difference between Compressed Yeast, Active Dry Yeast and Instant Dry Yeast is the number of cells per gram. Compressed yeast has the fewest and Instant Dry Yeast the most. And what is important, is the number of viable cells you add in your recipe. Be it Compressed Yeast, Active Dry Yeast or Instant Dry Yeast if you add the same number of viable cells you will get the same result. Gloria Martin wrote: >I do have a question. I know that salt inhibits the growth of yeast, >but I do believe I would like a little more salt in the finished >product. Would adding an additional 1/4 teaspoon inhibit the yeast too much? Go ahead and add the extra salt if you think it will improve the taste. That small amount of additional salt will not impact the yeast in any way. Tom --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n004.6 --------------- From: rvh@inteliport.com Subject: BBA Focaccia-Lessons Learned Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 10:29:06 -0500 (EST) I'm not here to explain why, just to report results. I had not made any bread for a very long time so I decided it was time to get back at it. I wanted to make a good focaccia so we could make some great Paninni sandwiches. Really like the one's at Panera's but they are over an hour away. So here's what I did. I started with the pain a l'ancienne recipe but I use more water for the focaccia. In this batch it was 30 oz of cold water but the rest of the recipe was as printed. This gives a dough that is better described as a batter. You can't possibly "handle" it. I had made this once before in the 11" X 17" sheet pan and it worked great. This time I wanted 4 individual breads so I used four 8" round cake pans. Two were the regular aluminum cake pans the other two were Hefty 8" aluminum disposables from Wal-Mart. I know Peter R says to use parchment in the bottoms but I figured I had put so much herbed olive oil in the pan that I could skip the parchment. That's the first lesson learned - pay attention to Peter! Now, here's the odd part. I baked the first two regular cake pans at the same time and when they came out the focaccia was HOPELESSLY stuck to the pan. Now the two disposable pans were already full of dough/batter. I figure I might as well bake them and I can just peel the pans off. When these pans came out, the focaccia just fell out of the pan. No sticking, no fuss. It may be that those pans are made of the new no stick aluminum. The second lesson learned - I'm using the disposable pans from Wal-Mart from now on! Later, rich-in-nc --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n004.7 --------------- From: lobo Subject: no-knead pan size? Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:11:56 -0700 First, thank you to the person who posted the NY Times video site where I found the no-knead video with Jim Lahey. Sorry, I get the digest and forgot to note your name. I've been reading the list sporadically, so if this has been asked before, I apologize. Somewhere in the postings, I saw the pan size given as 6-8 quarts. This seems huge. Lahey's pan didn't look that big, and he didn't say how big it was. I don't have a 6-8 qt pan with a cover without plastic handles. There's only 3 cups of flour in the bread, so surely my 2-qt cast iron frying pan is big enough? What do you think? Also, I thought Lahey's bread looked burned. I have found that at 500 F, (which is about the temperature advised by him and also for the breads in the Silverton book) the crust burns and I don't like it! Someone said to use 450 F (again, I didn't note the name). Lahey said that inside the pan it would be 212 F (something about moisture releasing). With the Silverton breads I've tried, I reduced the temp to 350 F and they were just fine and did not burn. Any thoughts on this? I know it's done to make a crispy crust and retain moisture inside, but burned crust is a real turn-off. Thanks! Lobo --------------- END bread-bakers.v107.n004 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2007 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved