Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 09:50:47 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v107.n003 -------------- 001 - "Gene Haldas" Subject: No kneed bread Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 14:27:34 -0500 I used to bake bread infrequently using a bread machine and always ended up with so so bread. Since reading and getting the recipe for no-kneed bread I now know how home-baked bread should taste. I have now added a cup of sourdough starter to the recipe and get bread that's every bit as good as the stuff they sell and serve in restaurants at Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco. I've been trying to bake a good San Francisco sourdough bread for the past 20 years and never came close until now. To convince people how great this bread really is they should view the movie clip that is still on the New York Times web site: and search for "no-knead". --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.2 --------------- From: Mike Avery Subject: Re: Digest bread-bakers.v107.n002 Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 23:40:02 -0700 Maggie Glezer wrote: >Active dry yeast is what most bakers have been using because it is >so easy to store. It will keep, in its original packaging, for about >a year at room temperature, making it a big improvement from the >compressed yeast. However, it is the least active yeast--producing >the least amount of gas, because of its large number of dead yeast >cells--and must be proofed, that is, rehydrated in warm water, >before use. It is a pain to use and a relatively large amount must >be used for decent leavening, so often recipes with active dry yeast >have a yeasty odor and flavor. I have to disagree here. In the 1970's I read James Beard's "Beard On Bread" and he said that active dry yeast was reliable enough that proofing the yeast was a waste of time, and that he neither did that nor recommended it. At that time, I stopped proofing active dry yeast and have never noticed any problems with the breads I made with Active Dry Yeast. While the yeast manufacturers still recommend proving the yeast, and cite the lack of proving as an advantage of instant dry yeast, I have not found proving active dry yeast to be necessary. Mike --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.3 --------------- From: "IndianaBob" Subject: no knead bread Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 01:05:11 -0600 I made the no-knead bread according to the directions, using bouncer flour fm GFS. I proofed it for about 20 hrs. It had a wonderful crust - inside it was more like chibatta - it was very tasty and I'll surely make it again. bob balitewicz aka indianabob --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.4 --------------- From: "Mary Fisher" Subject: Re: Digest bread-bakers.v107.n001 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 09:44:20 -0000 >I realize that all taste is personal, but in comparison with breads >made with a Poolish or pre-ferment, I don't think the no-knead >recipe produces an interesting or complex taste. My taste expert, - >namely my wife, - agrees. So do I, and so does the other Mary F! I think that people who are used to commercial bread would enjoy it but it's not for me - and it takes more effort, not less, than any of the breads I make normally because the timing isn't convenient. >In Bittman's original article he said he would not buy a cloche >because he avoids kitchen tools with only one use. Even though this >is true, I would cast a strong vote in favor of the cloche. >Stephen Blumm I also agree with Stephen about a cloche. It's a great accessory for bread-making. My first experience was with a fired-clay plant pot (without a hole) which I soaked overnight and inverted over a small amount of dough, the bread was divine! Often one will see plant pots being recommended for baking bread but it's always to make a novel shape, baking the bread as though the pot was just another baking tin. That's fine if you want an odd shape but it's certainly not the same as using one as a cloche. When I'm camping I often make bread on my charcoal fire by putting the dough on a skillet and upturning a stainless steel basin over it. It's not as good as a clay pot but it's better than nothing. A 'Dutch oven' would work too but I haven't one :- Mary --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.5 --------------- From: Elisabeth Keene Subject: Active Dry Yeasr Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 01:54:36 -0800 (PST) Contrary to what Maggie Glezer writes, I find active dry yeast extremely satisfactory. I do not use large amounts -- typically 1/3 or a 1/4 of a teaspoon raises a pound of flour. (3-4 cups?) There is no yeasty taste, and I find no difference between a loaf made with this or with compresed yeast. I don't know whether American brands are less satisfactory -- I use Allinsons from the UK. At the beginning I did have a few problems activating it, until John from this list set me right about the temperature of the water.( if you mix one third boiling water and 2/3 tap water, it is just fine). Yes, it's a little bit more trouble to get going, and perhaps the timing of the rising is not consistent enough for bread machines, but the result for me and my family is much tastier than bread made with instant,or rapid-rise, yeast. Elisabeth --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.6 --------------- From: Peter Latocki Subject: No Knead Bread Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 09:39:43 -0500 For what it's worth, my wife has been making this bread since we first saw it in the New York Times, and each has been a great success. She uses Canadian all purpose flour (we are in Ottawa, Canada) and Fleishman's instant yeast and bakes the bread in our French ceramic tagine, made by Emile Henri. The only initial hassle was in the bread dough sticking but that has been resolved with time and experience and more flour when working with the dough. The crust is crispy and the crumb is very chewy as we like it. The flavour is mild, but not bland, and we are happy with the results. Peter --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.7 --------------- From: David A Barrett Subject: Re: please translate for home cook Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 09:40:28 -0500 Annarosa's Ciabatta Dough Yield: 100# Prefermented Flour 30% Poolish Bread Flour (11%-12% protein) 16.85# 100% Water 16.85# 100% Yeast (compressed) 0.02# 0.10% Total 33.72# Final Dough Bread Flour (11%-12% protein) 39.33# 100% Water 25.28# 64.28% Yeast (compressed) 0.54# 1.37% Salt 1.13# 2.87% Poolish 33.72# 85.74% Total 100# Overall Formula Bread Flour 56.18# 100% Water 42.13# 75% Salt 1.13# 2% Yeast (compressed) 0.56# 1% Total 100 ************************************************************************ This is a ciabatta bread, so it's going to be highly hydrated - meaning it will be very wet and sticky when you put it in the oven. It also uses a poolish, which means that it is a two stage recipe. Make the poolish in the evening the day before you intend to bake the bread. There are weights here, but it makes up 100 lbs of dough, which is probably more than you want. You can use the percentages, however, to figure out how much of everything to put in. Ignore the "Overall Formula" section, as it is just informational. Note that the 100% value in the poolish is not the same as in the final dough, they will be two different numbers. To figure it out, decide how much bread you want to make. 6-8 cups of flour in total should make about two loaves, remember that this will be the combined amount of the poolish plus the flour added in the second stage. It looks like there is a little more than twice as much flour added in the final dough as there is in the poolish. Based on that, I'd start with 2 cups of flour in the poolish and calculate out everything else from there. Here's how to do it: 1. Put two cups of flour on a scale and weigh it. This is the "100%" value for the poolish. Weigh your water, it should be 85% of the weight of the flour. 2. It looks like the poolish has only a little bit of yeast in it, forget trying to weigh it. I'd use about a teaspoon in the poolish. 3. Weigh the poolish when you are done. The poolish is 85.74% of the weight of the flour in the final recipe, so the 100% number for the final dough should be about 1.2 times the weight of the poolish. 4. In the final dough, the water weight should be 65% of the final dough flour weight. 5. Weighing the tiny amounts of salt and yeast required is a non-starter in my book and the yeast weight is for compressed, not dried. I'd stick to 1 1/2 tablespoons of salt and a little under a tablespoon of yeast in the final dough. Hint: Doing the math in pounds and ounces is brutal, use a metric scale if you can Here's the method: 1. Mix all of the poolish ingredients together in a bowl the night before. It will be very liquid. Stir it in one direction for a few minutes, don't worry about lumps. Cover it with plastic wrap and leave it overnight. It should rise and be bubbly the next day. 2. Dump the poolish, all of the water, all but one cup of the flour and the salt and yeast into a bowl and mix together. If you have a mixer with a dough hook use it. Otherwise stir it together and then knead by hand. Use the remaining cup of flour in the kneading process. 3. It will be very wet and sticky, so kneading will be difficult. It's OK if you give up. 4. Put it in a bowl and let it rise. 5. It's a ciabatta recipe, so there's not going to be any forming and shaping. Don't pound it down, but gently pour it onto a floured surface and cut it in two. Coax it into something roughly the dimensions of a bagette on a baking sheet and bake it for around 10-15 minutes in a 425-450 F oven (those are just guesses, but should work). Handling the dough is tough. Use lots and lots and lots and lots of flour on your hands as you touch it. Don't worry about dry flour on the outside of the loaves, that's one of the characteristics of the ciabatta loaf. Dave Barrett --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.8 --------------- From: Larry T Subject: yeast Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 07:48:26 -0800 Maggie, Thank you for your clarification about the types of yeast. I was sure I had read somewhere that RapidRise was the same as instant, but I couldn't find the source, after reading otherwise on this list. >In the marvelous No Knead bread recipe, any brand of INSTANT yeast >can be used. I have made No-Knead bread twice with active dry yeast, dissolving the yeast in the water before mixing in the flour and salt and it seems to work fine. The first time I dissolved the yeast in approximately 110 degree water, and the dough was ready after only 8 - 10 hours so I baked it earlier than planned, but it tasted great and had great crumb and crust. It did have a bit of a sourdough flavor. The second time I made it, I dissolved the yeast in cooler water, and the dough took about 12 - 18 hours to ripen. This time I also used 20% (by weight) King Arthur White Whole Wheat flour. I felt the flavor was very bland, but the crumb was again excellent. I'm not sure why. For baking, I used my 6 1/2 quart Calphalon stock pot. The cover doesn't make the tightest seal, but it seems to work pretty well. The first time, baking at 500 degrees, the bread was ready after 30 minutes total. I didn't bake with the cover off, at all. The second time, baking at 450 degrees according to the follow-up article, I baked about 20 minutes with the cover on, and 20 with it off. The crust had great color, but the bread was a little moist inside, but still good. I will definitely continue to experiment with this recipe. It is excellent. Larry T --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.9 --------------- From: Mary Lincoln Subject: Re: No-knead bread pan Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 10:30:09 -0800 >I have a question re. the bread sticking to the pot: I have seen >mixed reports of that. I bought a cast iron dutch oven from Amazon.com ($20!) to bake the no-knead bread, and I experienced no difficulty at all with sticking. I followed the recipe exactly, but I will extend the baking time another 10-15 minutes next time since the loaves I've made have been a bit wet. Or maybe I just didn't let them cool long enough? I confess to sneaking a slice while it was stll slightly warm. This bread has been a blessing to me since I have lung disease and kneading bread was becoming too much of a chore for me. How nice to get such fantastic results - just the kind of bread I love - without all that labor! Next Christmas, I'm going to buy dutch ovens and include the recipe and some yeast as gifts for several friends/family members. Mary --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.10 --------------- From: Gloria J Martin Subject: Ingredients in No Knead Dough: Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 01:09:37 -0600 So many people have written in to ask about sugar lacking in the recipe. I believe there is a law in France that applies if bread is made to sell and it is called French Bread, it can only have 4 ingredients: flour, salt, yeast and water. It contains neither sugar nor butter. The lack of butter or fat of any kind is one reason why it stales quickly, but is also the reason for the wonderful crust. Most Baguettes are small in size, so are eaten up in one meal. Gloria Martin ggmartin2@juno.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.11 --------------- From: JH Subject: more on Instant Dry (Rapid Rise/Quick Rise) Yeast Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:42:24 -0500 Thanks to Maggie Glezer for her very informative comments on active dry and instant yeast in bread-bakers.v107.n002.3. As she says, with the appropriate volume adjustments, the home baker can substitute active dry for instant (and vice versa) with equal results. This is a topic I have been researching for a long time. I would like to add a few more facts. INSTANT DRY YEAST: as noted, instant yeast should be added to dry ingredients. Besides being dried at a lower temperature than active dry yeast, this is actually a slightly different strain of yeast created by "protoplast fusion", the scientific technique of combining two separate yeast strains into a new, single strain. Basically, the cell membrane for instant yeast is thinner than that for active dry. This allows instant yeast to absorb water readily so it does not need to be dissolved in water. In fact, dissolving instant yeast in water (especially very cold water) can damage or kill some yeast cells, as can direct contact with salt in the dough. This is why recipes often recommend that instant yeast be mixed in the flour first, then salt is mixed in and then the liquid is added. ADDITIVES IN INSTANT DRY YEAST: I buy my dry yeast in one-pound packages. I notice that the ingredients listed on the package include, besides yeast, ascorbic acid (vitamin C) and an emulsifier (though both additives are in small amounts). My packages of SAF Instant Yeast and Fleischmann's Instant Yeast both list the following ingredients: yeast, sorbitan monosterate (the emulsifier), and ascorbic acid. In contrast, whenever I've purchased Active Dry yeast (usually Fleischmann's) the package ingredients always just say yeast (nothing else). MORE ON ADDITIVES: Ascorbic acid helps create a stronger gluten and I have also read that small amounts help yeast multiply more rapidly in the initial stages. Besides being present in Instant Dry yeast, it is frequently added to supermarket brands of Bread flour (but *not* to All-purpose flour). I assume that the emulsifier is added to make the instant yeast perform better in doughs that contain a large amount of butter or other fats. EXPIRATION DATE: the expiration date on dry yeast refers to the time it can be stored, *unopened*, under the recommended storage conditions (a "cool, dry place"). It does *not* refer to how long the yeast will remain strong after it has been opened, since yeast manufacturers are clueless about how you store your yeast after you've opened it and won't make predictions. Manufacturers do recommend that opened yeast be stored in the refrigerator with the package well sealed to prevent moisture from entering the package. And we all know that opened dry yeast, whether Instant or Active Dry, can last for years with very little degradation when stored, well sealed, in the freezer. (I store my opened yeast in the package with the top clipped closed, in a zip lock bag in the freezer. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.12 --------------- From: "Allen Cohn" Subject: RE: doubling bread recipe advice Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 08:48:27 -0800 Hi Fredericka, Have no fear! My experience (and everything I've read) is that bread recipes scale up and down perfectly. Allen PS: On the other hand, you'll probably have more trouble-free baking if you convert your recipes to measure the flour by weight instead of volume. >I have the opportunity to use an institutional mixer and oven. I >usually use my KA stand mixer for bread recipes up to 6 cups of flour. > >I want to double a 5 cup recipe that calls for 2 Tbs of active >yeast. (I would sub instant). --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.13 --------------- From: "Allen Cohn" Subject: RE: please translate for home cook Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 09:03:15 -0800 Hi Anne, This shorthand "baker's math" nomenclature indicates a dough that's made in two stages--a very common and effective technique. For the first stage the "Poolish" or "pre-ferment" is mixed together. As you can see it contains 16.85 pounds of flour, 16.85 pounds of water, and 0.02 pounds of cake yeast. The percentages are the "baker's math." They show the amount of each ingredient in proportion to the total weight of the flour. For example, for the yeast: 100% X 0.02 pounds/16.85 pounds = 0.1% (after rounding). The percentages can be used to scale a recipe up or down to any desired batch size, and thus are the prefered notation among professional and home bakers. You didn't include the procedure with the excerpt, but one probably just mixes all these Poolish ingredients together till thoroughly moistened and then cover and let it sit at room temperature for 12-15 hours. After that time, the "final dough" ingredients are added (and kneaded, shaped and baked) according to the procedure in the recipe. The "overall formula" section is just informational. It is the sum of the two preceding sections. For example, 16.85 # flour Poolish 39.33 # flour Final Dough ------------------------- 56.18 # flour overall formula Finally, when making a small batch in the home kitchen one probably can't weigh out the small ingredients, like salt and yeast. So it will be useful to keep in mind: 1 oz of salt fills 4.17 teaspoons 1 oz. of instant yeast fills 12.5 teaspoons 1 oz. of cake yeast works like 0.4 oz. instant yeast So, to make this at home, just figure out the total weight of dough you want to produce and then use the ratios to calculate the amount of each ingredient. (I made a simple spreadsheet to do it!). Hope this helps. Allen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.14 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Tarheel Boy) Subject: Yeast Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 13:52:37 -0500 No! No! No! Rapid-rise yeast is not the same as Instant Yeast. RRY has chemicals added to it to make it rise in half the time it takes for active dry yeast and instant yeast to rise. In addition, the yeast cells die quicker so there is really just enough oomph for one rise. Rapid-rise should not be used by artisan bread bakers who believe long, slow rises contribute both flavor and structure. The "instant" in instant yeast refers to the rate at which this type of yeast absorbs water. If you could look at each one of those rods of yeast under a microscope, you would see that each one has the characteristics of a sponge: many openings, holes and voids that allow water to readily come into contact with the yeast, thus allowing it to hydrate. This feature allows the instant yeast to simply be put into dough, along with all the other ingredients, without pre-hydration. The fact the yeast is dry allows it to be used in dry mixes for pizza dough or in goody bags containing salt and sugar. As for "no-knead" bread, I believe there are too many good recipes out there just waiting to be baked for me to fool around with the latest fad. Besides, I have always enjoyed the kneading aspect of bread making. ;-)))) Bob the Tarheel Baker --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.15 --------------- From: "Lois Omdahl" Subject: re: no-knead bread Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 16:11:04 -0800 I've had wonderful luck with the no-knead bread, until I tried Mr. Foess' variation of putting the dough directly into a cold covered pot. I have been using a Lodge cast iron chicken fryer and have had great luck. Have not had to grease the pan, the bread never stuck and the crust was great. However, when I put the dough directly into the cold pan, I think the dough must have created enough moisture during the rise to stick, because I could not remove it for the last half hour of browning. I left it in the pot and when I tried to remove the loaf, it was a chore. Eventually I was able to pry it out . In the past, using a hot pan, the loaf just fell out. I do like using the cold pot for the reasons mentioned and wonder if greasing the pot or putting a circle of parchment on the bottom would help. Any other suggestions? Love the bread and the method. Lois Omdahl Shelton, WA --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.16 --------------- From: Ellen Lee Subject: No-Knead Bread: oiling the pot Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:34:02 -0500 You asked what kind of oil I used when I oiled the Dutch oven. The answer: olive oil. After I brushed on the oil, I removed virtually all of it with a paper towel. There was a barely perceptible light film of oil left; there was no smoking in the oven. Ellen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.17 --------------- From: Gloria J Martin Subject: No Knead Bread: Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:29:00 -0600 You can add me to the converts. I've made and taught bread baking classes for years and specialize in the Holiday types. However, when I saw the recipe for this on your site, I was intrigued and had to try it. I finished baking it shortly before I had dinner, and so after it had cooled sufficiently, I had 3 slices for dessert! I followed the recipe exactly and doing so made it work perfectly. I made 2 errors. #1. I thought I had floured the towel the dough rested on just before baking heavily, but it did stick, so next time I will flour it more. #2 was a stupid mistake I made. When the recipe said to use a 6-8 qt. covered bowl to bake it I had trouble thinking of one I had that big. Finally I remembered I have a 6 qt. Slow Cooker, crock, with a glass lid and a ceramic handle in the middle. It worked fine, except when I went to check on the baking at the time I was to remove the lid I found the handle had been plastic and had melted all over the top of the lid! Needless to say, I will have to find something different next time. I believe I could use one just a little smaller. I do have a question. I know that salt inhibits the growth of yeast, but I do believe I would like a little more salt in the finished product. Would adding an additional 1/4 teaspoon inhibit the yeast too much? I've been on your list for a number of years, and special things like this bread is the reason why. Also different people will contribute answers to problems people have, and sometimes the answer is just what I've been searching for. I thank you for doing this for all of us who are on your list. Gloria Martin --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.18 --------------- From: Ian Shere Subject: Sanyo SBM 201 Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 14:03:17 +1300 Just bought one of these second hand but no manual. Anyone know where I can get a copy? Thanks Ian G. Shere --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.19 --------------- From: Whitney511@aol.com Subject: No knead baking vessel Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:58:35 EST I used a Pyrex covered casserole to bake the no-knead recipe, proving that even a not so fancy container works fine. I preheated the casserole to 500F in the oven, as called for in the recipe. I dropped the dough in the casserole and baked it for the specified times covered and then uncovered. The dough did not stick, although I used nothing on the casserole. The bread was absolutely perfect and quickly vanished. xo, Wendy --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.20 --------------- From: RisaG Subject: No Knead Bread - on Martha Tomorrow Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 08:02:17 -0800 (PST) I just saw a preview of tomorrow's Martha show. She said she is going to have Jim Lahey on. He is from the Sullivan Street Bakery in NYC. She said he is going to show how to make bread without kneading. I guess it is a similar technique to the NY Times one, which I still have to try. I just bought another bread machine (at the flea market for $5 in the box) - a Welbilt - not the DAK version. Anyway, I've been playing with that so I haven't had time to try the NY Times recipe. I am dying to. One of these days I have to find the time to do it. Anyway, I just wanted to give a heads-up to those who have made it. I have to watch that tomorrow. RisaG Risa's Food Service http:= //www.geocities.com/radiorlg --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.21 --------------- From: "Russell Fletcher" Subject: Summerloaf 2007 Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:17:31 -0800 I e-mailed bbga.org asking if there would be a Summerloaf 2007. Here is their response: >Dear Russell, > >We are making that decision now. Please keep checking our web site >to see what exactly is being offered in Portland this year. Russ --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.22 --------------- From: RisaG Subject: Review: No Knead Bread Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:40:37 -0800 (PST) Well, I finally baked my first loaf of the No Knead Bread and my feelings on it - just magical and marvelous! Wow. A bit hard to get that moist dough into the extremely hot pot but otherwise very easy. Long rise time, no work to do really. Wow. I cut it open and it was full of large holes, moist consistency, crunchy outside. Really good. Like bread you buy at the artisan bread places. So good. I made a panini with my 2 slices, gave Steve one slice to have with his lunch. He liked it. Still wants to buy bread at the Siciliana though. Can't teach an old dog new tricks! I thought it was crunchy and wonderful. I am going to buy some wheat bran this weekend to use in my next loaf. I will also try to form it into a baguette shape for the next one too. So, a big success altho' they don't tell you how filthy the outside of your Le Creuset pot gets! Yikes, I hope I can get it clean before I use it for tonights chili! RisaG Risa's Food Service http://www.geocities.com/radiorlg --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v107.n003.23 --------------- From: "adam tenner" Subject: Recipe for Latvian Black Bread Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 08:47:07 -0500 Does anyone have a recipe for Latvian Black Bread? A friend of ours from Latvia brings us a loaf when she comes but we'd like to try making it at home. I've already started refreshing my starter! Thanks, -Adam in DC --------------- END bread-bakers.v107.n003 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2007 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved