Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 05:35:38 GMT -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v106.n041 -------------- 001 - FREDERICKA COHEN - Softer Sourdough 005 - "Bill Snider" - Want more open texture 008 - Haack Carolyn Subject: Montana wheat bread Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 03:43:33 -0700 (PDT) The Montana whole wheat bread looks delicious! What kind of yeast did you use? Instant or active dry? Do they make any comment on suggested yeast? Many thanks, Fredericka --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n041.2 --------------- From: Marcksmar@aol.com Subject: White whole wheat flour Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 21:35:31 EDT Has anyone used the new white whole wheat flour in their breadmaking? I would like to try it but am wondering if I use my regular whole wheat recipe or a white flour recipe. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n041.3 --------------- From: Mike Avery Subject: Re: softer sourdough Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 21:14:51 -0600 "Chris R. Sims" wrote: >my girlfriend prefers bread with a softer texture & crust (her main >criteria for picking out bread in the grocery store is "squishiness"). It may be time to find a new girlfriend... or educate the one you have. The bulk of any bread's taste is in the crust. There are so many wonderful crusts beyond the painted on brown of squishy bread. (My comment was mostly a joke. Couples don't have to share all their tastes.... >Possible factors: >* Baking on a sheet pan rather than stone. This one seems >promising, but will it impact oven spring? I would prefer not to >lose bread volume, if possible. Oven spring is considered by many bakers to be a flaw. If you have tremendous oven spring, you haven't let the bread develop fully, and as a result it is lacking in taste. Other bakers live for oven spring. Still, I think it is better to let the loaves fully rise, or to nearly fully rise. When I was running a bakery, more than 80% of our sourdough breads were pan breads. No problems. >* Baking at lower temperature for longer time. Would this give a softer crust? Lots of people have problems with getting their bread done, all the way through, without burning the outside. There are a few things you need to get right to get the bread right. Start with the dough development. The dough should pass the windowpane test when you are done kneading it. This is where you pinch off a ball of dough, and tease it between your hands, stretching it out until you can see light through it without the dough tearing. You aren't trying to read a newspaper through it, just hold it up towards a light bulb and see if you can see light through it. If not, knead another 5 minutes and try again. And, yes, you can develop whole wheat to the point where it passes a windowpane test (although home ground flour may present special problems in this regard). Next, don't overcrowd your pan, if you are baking a pan bread. You should fill the pan somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 full so the bread has room to rise. If you aren't using a breadpan, you might pinch off some dough and put it into a measuring cup so you can watch it rise. The dough should at least double before you bake it. Many oven thermostats are off. So you should invest in an oven thermometer. Make sure your oven is at the right temperature when you put the bread in - I don't care for the "start with a cold oven" techniques mostly because they aren't terrible repeatable. Finally, baking is a balancing act. You want the crust the right color at the same time as the crumb is as done as you want it. I suggest using a chef's thermometer to measure the temperature of the crumb. Shoot for about 205F as being done. If you want the bread more, or less, done, shoot for a higher, or lower, temperature. Now then.. the balancing act. It takes time to bake the crumb as it takes time for the heat to penetrate the dough and turn it into bread. If your crumb is underdone, you have to leave it in the oven longer. If your crumb is overdone, you have to bake it less time next time around. However, the crust is controlled more by the temperature than the time. If you want a darker crust, turn the heat up 25F or so. If you want a lighter crust, turn it down. The catch is.. the two are related. If you reduce the heat, you may have to increase the time. Take notes, adjust as needed, and soon you'll bake bread that looks and tastes the way you want it to. As a final comment - Professor Calvel always said you can't burn bread. He wasn't quite right, but most people do underbake their bread. Most of bread's taste is in the crust, and if its underdone, the taste doesn't develop. So, try baking the bread 5 minutes longer than you thought you should. Taste it, try it. See if maybe you want to go another 5 minutes next time. A crust can become quite dark without being burned. >* Duration of final proofing. I have been retarding the dough in >the fridge overnight before baking in order to increase flavor. But >does retarding also result in a crisper crust? I haven't seen any correlation between retarding and crust crispness. Retarding formed loaves tends to lead to a blistered crust, which is considered a flaw in France and a virtue in the USA. However, the crust can be soft and blistered or crisp and blistered. >* Hydration of dough. It seems like a dryer dough would have a >softer crust, but I'm not sure. (I'm basing this on the extra-crisp >crust of high-hyrdation breads like ciabatta, but I can't really >grasp the physics or chemistry of why this should be so No, that's not really related. The ingredients and baking conditions have some impact on crust formation. However, when you bake the bread, the water is, to no small extent, baked out. >* Oven steam. Would adding less steam result in a softer curst? Or >is it the other way around? Steam tends to lead to a crisper crust. However, that is based on a relatively short steaming - a matter of minutes, not for the whole bake time. If you steam too long, you impact your oven temperature (unless you have a commercial oven that can produce super-heated steam), but too much steam will produce soggy bread in any situation. If the oven is too wet, the water in the bread can't bake off. In short, if you want a crisp crust, a blast of steam for a few minutes will help you. >* Adding fats. I would prefer to avoid this one, but would adding >milk, oil, or butter influence crust texture? Why avoid it? Many breads need fats, oils or milk to be what they are supposed to be. To some extent, a lean bread will have a crisper crust than a richer bread. However, a rich bread can still have a nice thick, though somewhat softer, crust. >Obviously, a basic requirement is not losing the great flavor of >traditional sourdough. That is, I am afraid, a misnomer. Sourdough has been used in every country in the world from the time of the Pharaohs. It was the main leaven until the late 1800's when commercial bakers yeast became reliably available. If you enjoy a bread that was available before 1880, it was almost certainly a sourdough bread. Sourdough is, at the end of the bake, just a leaven. What it always brings to the table is an increased depth of flavor, improved dough handling characteristics, and better bread keeping qualities. Beyond that, things get fuzzier. If you use a lot of sourdough starter, you tend to get a milder bread with less of the classic San Francisco Sourdough bite. The French prefer a milder sourdough, or Levain, taste. Some Americans prefer a stronger or milder taste. If you use less starter and a longer rise, you tend to get more "sourdough taste." ANY bread can be a sourdough bread. One of my customers once told me that he didn't care for my sourdoughs, but he just LOVED my Cinnamon Raisin bread. I didn't have the heart to tell him it was a sourdough bread too. A mild one. I have a good number of sourdough recipes at my web page, http://www.sourdoughhome.com that might help you. Good luck, Mike ...The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world... --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n041.4 --------------- From: LShaw Subject: Softer Sourdough Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 21:35:26 -0700 In response to Chris' request for sourdough with all the lovely flavors, but no crackly crust: Yes, less steam in the oven will provide a softer crust, but my favorite way to soften the crust without sacrificing flavor is to store the bread in a sealed plastic bag. Usually, this will draw some of the moisture from the crumb into the crust, softening it without changing any other characteristics of the bread. The good news is, it can be crisped again in a hot oven (with a negligible loss of quality). Compromise is good, and this is one that's worked in our house! Good Luck! L Shaw Shasta County, CA --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n041.5 --------------- From: "Bill Snider" Subject: Softer sourdough Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 21:40:18 -0400 Some random thoughts. Possible factors: >* Baking on a sheet pan rather than stone. This one seems >promising, but will it impact oven spring? I would prefer not to >lose bread volume, if possible. Actually, the simplest solution would be to bake her loaves in a bread pan. The challenge is to keep moisture on the outside of the loaf during proofing and baking. You do need to proof a bit longer to accommodate the fact that it the loaf can only expand in one direction. But in the end, your volume can be the same as with a free-form loaf. And you should still slash the loaves to control the expansion. (I make my standard sourdough in loaf pans all summer because, let's face it, a BLT or a tomato sandwich just isn't the same when you bite into a thick crust and the slices squirt out and scatter in all directions... >* Baking at lower temperature for longer time. Would this give a softer crust? I bake my loaf pans at a lower temp because I want to ensure interior cooking before excess browning. (400F v. 440F) >* Duration of final proofing. I have been retarding the dough in >the fridge overnight before baking in order to increase flavor. But >does retarding also result in a crisper crust? I retard loaves in pans with no problems. >* Hydration of dough. It seems like a dryer dough would have a >softer crust, but I'm not sure. (I'm basing this on the extra-crisp >crust of high-hyrdation breads like ciabatta, but I can't really >grasp the physics or chemistry of why this should be so A wetter dough often has a thinner crust, but it depends more upon how long it is baked. >* Oven steam. Would adding less steam result in a softer curst? Or >is it the other way around? Steam is more vital to oven spring than to crust thickness. Crust thickness is more related to baking time. >* Adding fats. I would prefer to avoid this one, but would adding >milk, oil, or butter influence crust texture? Fats are added primarily to give you a more tender crumb. But they will also soften the crust. >Obviously, a basic requirement is not losing the great flavor of >traditional sourdough. If anyone has any expertise or insight into >the best manipulation or combination of factors, I'd certainly love >to hear about it! It's simple: Bake your sweetie's loaves in pans at a slighly lower temp! Cheers, Bill --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n041.6 --------------- From: Dan Haggarty Subject: Re: Softer Sourdough Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 09:41:30 -0400 A faint memory from my childhood led me to the Joy Of Cooking, which advises "to keep the crust soft, brush the crust with butter after the bread is baked and out of the pan; then cover it with a damp cloth". Dan --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n041.7 --------------- From: "Deb" Subject: Want more open texture Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 08:49:49 -0500 Hello all! I have so far greatly enjoyed this list and have finally made good bread basis recipes posted here, and tips. Thank you! My "problem" now is although I am very happy with the bread from the recipe below, I would really prefer more/larger holes in the bread. Can someone give me any tips or ideas on how to do this? I start with: 1 cup starter 2 cups warm water 2 1/2 cups flour (about 50/50 white and whole wheat) Proof overnight up to 15 hours (usually it's at least 13 for me). At this point it's very bubbly and very stringy, but pourable. I use: 2.5 cups of the proofed starter 1.5 cups of warm water 1 T sugar Scant 1 T salt 2 T oil 1 T lecithin granules 4.5 cups flour, maybe a 1/4 cup more Add 1 cup flour to starter. Mix in water, then sugar, salt, etc. Add flour until dough pulls away from side of bowl. Turn onto board and knead in the rest of the flour. The dough at this point just barely does not stick to the board for me. Kneading usually is 8 minutes I am guessing. (maybe that's not enough? Then I proof for 3-4 hours until it=92s about doubled. Then I punch it down, break into two loaves, shape them, and put them in oiled loaf pans. Then I let them rise for 2-4 hours until they are a bit less than doubled. Baked at 375 F for 45 minutes. Thanks in advance for any help! --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v106.n041.8 --------------- From: Haack Carolyn Subject: softer sourdough Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 03:22:59 -0700 (PDT) Chris, I will be interested to read the more technical responses from the amazing array of contributors to this list -- but until you and I have time to try all the suggestions that will be coming along, here's a real lo-tek idea: put the bread in a plastic bag for a day. The humidity in the center of the bread will migrate out and soften the crust. This is why so many are disappointed in day-old bread, but it just might work for you and your gal. Good luck! --------------- END bread-bakers.v106.n041 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2006 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved