Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:25:54 -0600 (MDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v103.n035 -------------- 001 - Nifcon@aol.com - Allen Cohn - multiple mixing 002 - POACHER2@aol.com - Re: mixing 003 - POACHER2@aol.com - Re: testing 004 - POACHER2@aol.com - Re: sourdough starter 005 - Epwerth15@aol.com - Re: King Arthur flour 006 - Roxanne Rieske - Re: King Arthur flour 010 - Brown_D@kids.wustl.edu - Re: Short mixing times 011 - "Gloria J. Martin" Subject: RE: dough enhancer vs either/or gluten, asorbic acid and whole wheat Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:04:22 -0600 Mike wrote: >I see a lot of bread recipes that call for the addition of Vital Glutten >or Dough Enhancer. Some have both added.Which one are you better off >using? Is the end result the same using either one. The Vital Glutten is >cheaper to purchase than the Dough Enhancer. I'm looking for the best >bread that can be made and if the Enhancer does a better job then so be >it, that's what I'll keep. No need to have both is there? I also see >asorbic acid (vitamin c) powder in a few recipes. Do I need a science >degree to make a loaf of bread? I hope someone out there with more >knowlege than I have can enlighten me. I always reach for the dough enhancer. It's a mix of barley malt, asorbic acid, and vital wheat gluten. I think it's a mix of all three that really helps heavy, stiff bread doughs. I never leave it out of bagel and whole grain bread recipes. As for your whole wheat bread dilemma: A 100% whole wheat loaf is always going to be heavier and denser than than other whole wheat loaves. Mainly because the germ and the bran keep the gluton from fully forming in these breads. Adding dough enhancer, and sufficient liquid will help. Sometimes more water needs to be added. It's a hands up in the air kind of thing. The way these techniques work will vary from baker to baker. I would suggest experimenting with water content and rising times. My bakery makes a honey-whole wheat bread that is a fantastic, yet slow riser. This is due to a wild yeast starter that we use rather than packet yeast. The wild starter acts as a conditioner for the dough. You might want to try something like this for your bread. Roxanne --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n035.7 --------------- From: Farnes_Quinn Subject: Mike's Bread Additives Conundrum (long winded, rambling reply) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:21:21 -0700 Mike, As for the science degree, it's helpful when explaining to people why some of us DO go around in the lab coat and nerd pad :-), but as for baking bread, I don't think it's essential. What is essential is to not believe everything you read in recipe books and to be willing to experiment. The process of optimizing a bread recipe isn't much different from that of working on a new chemical formulation: When faced with a problem you (1.) think about what might be causing the problem, (2.) theorize as to how you might solve it, (3.) try your idea out, (4.) evaluate the results, go back to (2.), or if you were successful, then (5.) apply what you've learned to new problems (or write a paper telling your colleagues how clever you are). First of all, I've found that in WW recipes honey and molasses seem to retard yeast growth as compared to brown sugar. Try the same measure of packed brown sugar instead of honey and you'll see a difference. I've found that I need about 1 tsp. of yeast for every cup of WW flour to get a decent rise. Many recipes use only half that amount of yeast. Oh yes, you ARE resetting the bread machine after the first knead, aren't you? Seems some folks might disagree with that, though. The gluten helps to give the loaf structural strength to resist the weight of the heavy flour compressing the gas cells produced by the yeast. Try adding 1 rounded Tbsp. gluten and you'll see a big difference. The bread enhancer isn't necessary, but if you want to try something like it, add the following: 1 Tbsp. or so of lecithin, available at health food stores, 1 tsp. of ground ginger, then grind up a 500mg vitamin C tablet in a little water and add to the dough. The lecithin seems to make the dough have a silkier texture, the ascorbic acid (vit C) acidifies the mix a little, which the yeast like, up to a point, and the ginger, . . . well . . . it tastes good, if nothing else. As for the Zo, I have the older vertical model (V15) and while it is the best machine I've had, I no longer bake in it. I just use it for making dough. Much superior to my KitchenAid, better than I can do by hand, and a lot easier. The problem with baking in any bread machine is that, while the cycle times are fixed, every time you measure out the components, unless you measure by weight, there will always be some error which affects rise time. The machine, oblivious to the state of the dough, marches mechanically on, and the often poor and irreprodcible results explain why so many bread machines end up being donated to charity, or worse. I finally figured out that measuring flour, water, etc. by weight, not volume, was the key to repeatability. A former neighbor used to be a baker. I once asked him how he baked bread. He said, "Well, I dump a hundred pound sack of flour into the Hobart, then add 5 lbs of sugar, then 20 lbs. of water, a pound of oil . . ." Get the idea? By weight, not volume. For a while, I was "batching" my recipes. Once I had one I liked optimized, I would weigh out all the solid components (except yeast) for 10-15 loaves or so into a 2 gallon plastic paint bucket with lid (Home Depot), mix thoroughly, then weigh out the blend, add liquids, add yeast, punch START, and every loaf came out just the same. Not very exciting, but good for repeatability. Overall, however, I think it's a lot easier to just measure everything out quickly into the machine, punch "Dough Cycle" and when it's done, or an hour later, or whenever I happen to remember, turn the dough into a bread pan, put it in a warm oven with light on and when it has risen to the right height, turn the sucker on to 350 F and come back in 35 minutes (WW) or 55 minutes (White). You also end up with a better looking loaf with better internal consistency, and without mixer blade divots. Hope this helps, Quinn --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n035.8 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Skallywagg) Subject: Additives and Ed Okie Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Mike asked about vital wheat gluten and dough enhancers. Mike, dough enhancers usually consist of vital wheat gluten, diastatic malt, and ascorbic acid. You pay a higher price for the enhancer when someone else mixes it for you. Now, I don't mind paying a higher price for the convenience of a quality product such as Lora Brody's. But to answer your question, you don't need both VWG and a dough enhancer. The VWG is going to help your dough develop structure, especially when part of that dough consists of whole wheat and/or rye that doesn't have as much gluten as bread or even all-purpose flour. The malt will help develop taste and browning, and the ascorbic acid gives the yeast a boost. All you need is 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon per recipe of the ascorbic acid. So, use a pre-mixed dough enhancer like Lora's or add your own VWG, malt, and ascorbic acid. Play around with them in the same recipe and see which combination works best for you. If you have any additional questions, please address them in this forum or write to me privately. In closing, I have to say I got a kick out of Jazzbel's conception of Ed Okie. I have imagined him with an Einstein-like hairdo standing in front of a huge blackboard covered with equations that fills one wall of his kitchen. Little wonder he is so smart about bread baking. ;-))) Bob the Tarheel Baker --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n035.9 --------------- From: Honey Subject: Re: King Arthur flour Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:58:04 -0700 (PDT) I would like to add my accolades for King Arthur flour/s. I have NEVER had a failure using any of them. It smells so good when you open the bag. It's the only flour I will recommend, The quality is consistently good. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n035.10 --------------- From: Brown_D@kids.wustl.edu Subject: Re: Short mixing times Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:01:17 -0500 I'm not sure if this counts as "short mixing times"--but I have enjoyed using the Cusinart technique outline by Charles Van Over in "The Best Bread Ever" for nearly all of my breads since I read his book. The short version: Using a sufficiently powerful cuisinart (the 11 or 14 cup bowl-sized processor) and the standard metal blade, NOT the dough blade, add the dry ingredients for one loaf of bread up to a max of about 500g flour to the bowl (including flour, salt, instant yeast); add ice-water cold liquid ingredients all at once with the machine on; let mix until the dough comes together into a mass and starts to clean the sides of the bowl; let rest 15 minutes to hydrate the flour; mix again "on" for 45 seconds, pausing briefly to correct with a little more flour or water if needed; turn out dough and round or shape as needed for the next step, which now is usually overnight in the fridge per Peter Reinhart. Total time, start to finish is about 16 minutes, but most of that is the resting step: the actual mix is about 2 minutes--although it is very vigorous mixing. I've used this combination to make pain l' ancienne, pizzas, buttermilk sandwich bread, and various flatbreads and fruit and nut breads. Diane Brown in St. Louis --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n035.11 --------------- From: "Gloria J. Martin" Subject: Short mixing times: Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:20:33 -0500 I find the Bread Bakers list very interesting and do gain information from it. I would like to suggest that if one is really interested in making good bread with minimum time, they should use the Cuisinart Food Processor. Mine is not to newest one with a special button to push for making bread. Mine the the 7 Super-Pro that has been around for many years. After getting all the dry ingredients in the machine, starting with the flour. turn the machine on and pour in the proofed yeast, then the liquid called for and run the machine an additional 30-40 seconds. The dough should have formed a ball by now, and is ready to let rise. Caution: Do not use more flour than the instuction manuel tells you to. Do be wary of doing this in any other brand machine. Read instruction book to see if break making is recommended. I have not tried the newer, very wet doughs in the machine and do not know how well they would work. In the 7 Super-Pro you can usually make enough dough for 2 loaves of bread. In the Custom 11, 1 large or 2 smaller loaves, in the Classic or 10, 1 average loaf and in the X machine, you can use 10 cups of flour, which makes 3 loaves---all just as fast. Gloria Martin --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n035.12 --------------- From: Farnes_Quinn Subject: Re: Mike's Bread Additives and a minor problem Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:26:24 -0700 Mike, You might want to try the following. It's originally from Electric Bread by Suzan Nightingale, Innovative Cooking Enterprises (ICE Press) page 30. Here's the recipe as printed in the book: 100% Whole Wheat Bread Ingredient Quantity Water 1.5 Cups + 2 Tbsp. Whole Wheat Flour 3.5 Cups Dry Millk 2 Tbsp Salt 1.5 Tsp Butter 2 Tbsp Honey 2 Tbsp Gluten 1.5 Tbsp Molasses 1 Tbsp. Yeast 3 Tsp Here's the way I make it: Water 1.5 Cups Whole Wheat Flour 3.5 Cups (470 grams) Dry Millk 2 Tbsp Salt 1.5 Tsp Olive Oil 2 Tbsp Brown sugar 2 Tbsp Gluten 1.5 Tbsp Molasses 1 Tbsp. Yeast 3 Tsp (1 Tbsp) This latter recipe works every time. If I use honey, or molasses instead of honey, I get a short loaf with the consistency of last year's fruitcake. Simply substituting an equal amount of brown sugar made all the difference. While the jury is still deliberating about the necessity of kneading, I'll add that I follow the book's recommendation to reset the machine after the first knead to give the yeast a little more time to generate gas. With this recipe, it makes a big difference. Hope this helps. q. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n035.13 --------------- From: Nifcon@aol.com Subject: My name is John and I'm a lazy baker. Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:48:54 EDT The Bone-Idle Bakers of Britain, the Senior Organisation, congratulate Ed Okie a Colonial Founder Member of the US chapter on his contribution to the art of doing bugger all, or even less, making excellent bread whilst expending as close to zero energy as humanly possible. I think a roundup of bread making techniques to make life easier for the serious, or just plain lazy, baker would be appropriate at this point. In no particular order, the labour and time (baker's time not elapsed time saving methods in regular use in my kitchen are...... Nonexistent or very short mixing times, so far only for slack doughs, Ciabatta, Focaccia and, of course, Pain a l'Ancienne for which I am now, after the latest highly sucessful batches, mixing for just 30 seconds with a chopstick or fork. Stretch and fold, the method par excellence of developing elasticity, should you require it, in high-hydration dough. Any dough over about 60% hydration, apart from Ancienne, benefits from at least one stretch and fold cycle during it's rise. Cold start baking, on which I have been running tests, informal, for Ed and myself for about a year and which, this summer in the UK has proved it's worth over and over. The variation between batches baked cold and hot start is, in my experience, less than the variations that occur between different batches both baked in the same way. It is also MUCH easier to postion wobbly fragile loaves, proofed to within a hair of collapse, in a cold oven, and a LOT less hazardous to someone as badly coordinated as myself. Multiple rest/knead cycles, referred to in the last issue of Reggie's digest by Allen Cohn and one of the absolutely crucial techniques to making medium hydration doughs with minimum strain on mind and muscle. Typically, with such a bread, I will leave it in the kitchen and give the bread a brief knead when I happen to be passing by over a space of several hours whilst getting on with other tasks. The bread, effectively, is simultaneously kneaded and risen. For very firm dough, bagels for example, a pasta machine, on widest setting, which gives you the capability of mixing superbly by repeatedly folding the dough in half and repassing it through the rollers. I have no leaning to use a fixed method or combination of methods for any given dough, I mostly just wing it using whatever technique I think will work and changing methods midstream if necessary. All the dough handling methods referred to are in no way theoretical or fanciful, they all work and are, for me, a standard part of the armoury of baking skills. I can expand on any of the techniques mentioned, on list, or privately if anybody feels it necessary or desriable or both, as I'm sure can many of the more experienced bakers on this list.. The message is simple, if a recipe tells you to "knead for 15 minutes, the dough should pass the windowpane test" or "Hurl the fragile dough into the raging oven avoiding the blasts of skin-stripping steam and cursing as little as possible" then "it aint necessarily so". and one or several of the methods referred to in this post could make life a lot simpler. John "Anything You Can Do I Can Do Less" Wright. Professor Emeritus of Idleness Studies at the University of Life. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n035.14 --------------- From: Erika816@webtv.net (Erika Newman) Subject: Bosch Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:28:48 -0400 (EDT) I am very curious about the Bosch Mixers. Can someone help? They all seems to have a 700 Watt Motor. Some are plastic, some metal. What is the difference? And please: Does anyone own the machine and how does it compare to a Kitchen Aid quality wise. Any info would be greatly appreciated! Thanks ....Erika Newman --------------- END bread-bakers.v103.n035 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2003 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved