Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:52:30 -0600 (MDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v103.n034 -------------- 001 - "Schmitt, Barbara E." Subject: Short mixing times Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:36:35 -0400 Regarding short mixing times for bread, this technique is spelled out in one of my favorite bread books, _No Need to Knead_ by Suzanne Dunaway. I make her Rosemary Focaccia with less than 10 minutes total hands-on time from start to finish. A hint for topping bread with rosemary -- soak it in olive oil for about 10 minutes first, and it won't burn. Happy baking! Barbara --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.2 --------------- From: PAULNBONNH@aol.com Subject: Re: Mike's mixer Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 10:00:24 EDT This is in response to Mike who was questioning which mixer he should purchase. I own the Dimension 2000 mixer and I am thrilled with it. It comes with a lifetime guarantee on the motor. After using my mixer extensively for about a year, the motor started making a grinding sound; I contacted the customer service department and was told to return the mixer. They sent me a brand new mixer. Mine was a older model, and they sent me the newest model currently in production. That's what I call delivering on the lifetime guarantee. I also own a Whisper Mill grain unit that is made by the same people, and it also comes with a lifetime guarantee. Hope this helps. Please feel free to contact me if you would like to discuss this further. Paul in Md. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.3 --------------- From: "Allen Cohn" Subject: Re: reducing kitchen heat Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:01:48 -0700 The cold start method probably represents a rare area where the home baker has an advantage over the pro: bakeries (probably) need to keep their ovens hot so they can crank out huge numbers of loaves in a continuous process. But I only make a loaf at a time, so I can use cold start. This might even by why there's less written about cold start. Allen allen@cohnzone.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.4 --------------- From: "Allen Cohn" Subject: RE: Slashing and flouring bread dough... Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:01:50 -0700 I've seen some bakers (such as Peter Reinhart) go through great lengths while shaping to build up tension in the outer layer of the dough (I haven't tested the significance of this technique myself). If you do build up tension, then the slashes open up a bit immediately when you make them. Allen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.5 --------------- From: "Allen Cohn" Subject: RE: Mixing dough: another tall tale? Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:01:53 -0700 Concerning mixing...I suspect (and my next series of tests will explore) whether the key to kneading is not the duration, but the technique. I suspect that optimal gluten formation requires multiple sequences of brief kneading, then resting the dough (30 minutes?). The things that lead me on this path are: * Both Peter Reinhart and Cook's Illustrated mentioned that gluten will form from flour's two proteins as soon as water is added (no kneading needed; the effect is called "autolyze"). (In Peter's demo he recommended kneading as little as one can get away with. * My bread machine makes markedly better loaf bread than I do...even with exactly the same ingredients (and even when I only use the machine for mixing and the first rising, baking the bread machine loaf in the oven). This perplexed me greatly. Then I observed that the bread machine goes through several cycles of mix & rest. * I noticed that the rustic bread recipe from a King Arthur demo, as well as Cook's Illustrated's ciabatta recipe use the multiple mix/rest technique. Any comments from the group? Allen --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.6 --------------- From: "Susannah Ayres-Thomas" Subject: RE: Inconsistency in flours Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:22:57 -0500 I want to add my vote of confidence to Ed's regarding King Arthur Flour. KAF is always consistent, because they always balance the formulae, so that the protein level remains the same, from bag to bag. When you read on the bag that the flour contains X% protein, it does, every single time. When I want my recipe to turn out perfectly, I go for KAF, every single time. They have several kinds of flours, including two different bread flours, pastry flour, cake flour, AP, the whole nine yards. So, if you haven't tried it yet, please do. And if you don't have a store in your area which carries it, you can mail-order it, or order online at www.kingarthurflour.com Susannah --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.7 --------------- From: "Jazzbel" Subject: Re: This and That Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:06:16 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Ed Okie said: >Read any book, magazine, or recipe, and the advice about dough mixing is >near-universal: Do it 6 minutes, 8, 10, or more. Some suggest the "window >pane" test for checking "proper mix". Others use the descriptive phrase >"until smooth as a baby's bottom." Jazzbel: I always imagine Ed Okie in spectacles, white lab coat, and a nerd pad while baking his bread. I agree partially with his posts, and it is true that his method will work for many rustic breads, pizza, foccacia, french bread, but for a classic pain de mie, which slices very thin with minimal crumbs, well, I will still knead for the longer period. The window pane test is too troublesome forme, so I prefer tojudge by the baby' bottom. Anita says: >I order it in 25 pound bags and make my own bread flour. Jazzbel: That is an interesting recipe you present here, but I suppose that it would be more useful for perons who mill their own flour, as many commercaial brands of bread flour are already treated with ascorbic acid and some contain the malt as well. Commercial flours contain a variety of grains and, when using a good brand, you will end up with consistent results I use the Robinh Hood All-Purpose or Better for bread and it turns out beautifully. Loma said: >I was chatting to a chef at our local pizza place, and he said that the >benefit was that you didn't need to leave the dough to prove overnight >before use. I know it's not high gluten/bread flour as he was most >scathing about the stiff dough which results if you try to use that. Jazzbel: I do not think that the flour really has any special role in pizza dough. It is really the water and oil in it. For pizza, all you have to do is mix flour, water, little bit of oil and salt, and yeast. You can actually make as slack as you want , and use very little yeast then simply give it time to rise. As for the refrigerator, why would you give up that. Make the dough the night before, grate the cheese the night before. When you get home from work , it takes 5 minutes to assemble (the dough needs not come to room temperature, and it will stretch easily, as Ed Okie recently demonstrated, and you can take a bubble bath while it bakes. Susannah said: >Ladies and Gents, I'm working on finding out about dough conditioners, but >I need to know what kind we're looking for. LeSaffre actually makes 10 >kinds of dough conditioners. Jazzbel: Are you considering dough conditioner for baking in a bakery? Truly, I can do without all commercial dough conditioners. For example, I have make par-baked dough, so would never need such conditioner. Also, the description by the manufacturer means nothing to me. I would demand to know what is in it, as chemicals such as potassium bromate are banned in many countries. Later, Jazzbel --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.8 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Skallywagg) Subject: Fredericka, never fear. The Tarheel Baker is here. Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Fredericka Cohen writes: >My Carl's 1847 sourdough starter arrived today and I am ready to go! I >want to make sure that I am doing the correct....and delicious!...thing so >I hope that the Tarheel Baker will send forth experienced instructions >from North Carolina. Yes, Fredericka, there is a Tarheel Baker. I have never used Carl's 1847 sourdough starter, but have worked with several other dried starters. So, after hearing your damsel in distress cry, I immediately googled Carl's 1847 sourdough starter and got his instructions. While I agree with most of it, there are a few points with which I take issue. (Carl's instructions will be found at the bottom of this message. First, I would not add potato flakes or potato water to the mixture. You are not looking for the yeast that lives on potatoes (or grapes or anything else for that matter). That's fine if you are making potato bread, but not sourdough bread. Second, I would also cut down the water from 1 cup to 3/4 of a cup for the regular feeding. Third, I would never add cider vinegar, milk, or sugar to the starter. True sourdough starter needs only water, flour, and wild yeasts. I find that once you get your starter activated properly, you will probably have to feed it once a month. I must admit to having neglected mine for as much as two months with no loss in efficacy. Gee, I don't get to use that word too much. ;- Two more things: Always use bread flour and if a pink liquid forms on top of your starter it is gone. Throw it out and start over. Please let me know when the bread, cheese, and coffee will be ready. Good luck. Bob the Tarheel Baker Carl's Instructions: To REACTIVATE the starter from the powdered form: 1. Dissolve the contents of the packet with 3/4 cup warm (90 degree) water, add 3/4 cup white bread flour, and 1 teaspoon sugar in glass or plastic container (NOT METAL!). 2. Place bowl (covered with damp towel) in warm place (the oven with the light on is about 85F - Test it first!) for up to 48 hours. It will get bubbly from the fermentation. IT'S ALIVE!! 3. Mix in 1 cup warm (95F) water, add 1 cup flour, 1 tablespoon dried potatoes or use potato water and let sit in the warm place till bubbly again. Don't worry about the lumps as the fermentation will take care of them. 4. Now, you can store it in the frig till needed. It may develop a clear liquid on top, if so, stir it back in as this is alcohol - keep it happy! It will need feeding about every couple of weeks, just add 1 cup warm skim milk or water, 1 T Sugar and 1 cup flour. Once in a while add 1 tablespoon of dried potatoes (or use potato water). If it looks sick, add 1 T CIDER vinegar to give it a kick in the behind! Give the excess to a friend or you can keep some of it in the freezer for several months between feedings. When you want to bake something, bring the starter up to room temperature, mix in 1 cup flour, 1 c warm water or skim milk and let sit overnight to ferment. The next morning, remove one cup to keep in a covered jar as a starter for use next time, feed it, then do your baking. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.9 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Skallywagg) Subject: Flour... Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:15:31 -0400 (EDT) There may be other flours that are the equal of King Arthur, but I have yet to kind them. Patty Dietrich has told me about a brand called Montana Wheat, but I have been unable to get any yet. The point I want to make, however, is that I believe King Arthur has a superb quality control program and that if the product from one of their millers does not meet their standards, it is not used. That's why I consistently get get great results when I use King Arthur. I have been in the dairy food and grain processing businesses and know a little about product quality control. Bob the Tarheel Baker --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.10 --------------- From: Tarheel_Boy@webtv.net (Skallywagg) Subject: On dough mixing and the "cold oven" technique... Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:35:13 -0400 (EDT) Ed Okie writes that advice about dough mixing is near-universal: Do it 6 minutes, 8, 10, or more. Some suggest the "window pane" test for checking "proper mix." Others use the descriptive phrase "until smooth as a baby's bottom." The advice spins one unspoken theme: Do it this way or else the world will end! Bob sez: Well, Ed, I don't think the implication is that the world will end if you don't do it "their way." Bread baking book authors write for a variety of readers, not just one that lives in steamy Florida or in the cool mountains of western North Carolina or in a village in Yorkshire. I have never really gotten Peter Reinhart's "window pane" test to work correctly for me, yet I do make damned good bread. Experience has taught me when my dough is "just right." But an author can't write that, can he or she? So, they give an estimate as starters knowing that a serious bread baker will work out his or her own time period so they will know when it is "just right." Ed also writes: Equally confusing: the advice inevitably is wrapped around words of "proper gluten development," "protein structure," etc. The jargon is enough to keep even the enemy confused. Bob adds: What's confusing about proper gluten development? Any serious bread baker knows that development of the gluten will give the bread both structure and flavor. And, if you are a new baker, you should be made aware of these things. I don't know who "the enemy" is, but I think a little information about the "science" of bread baking is helpful to both new and experienced bakers. My intention here is not have a debate, but rather to point out that all of us are different. We have different kitchens, different techniques, and we just might do something a little differently than the baker next door or the one in another state or that bone-idle guy (Hi, John!) in Yorkshire. Therefore, the author must write for all of us. As an example, I think Peter Reinhart has the knack of doing just that. As an example, I have tried your "cold oven start" three times now with disastrous results, but just because it doesn't work for me doesn't mean it's bad thing. It's just different, as we all are different. My soapbox has just collapsed and my work here is done. Bob the Tarheel Baker --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.11 --------------- From: "Steven and Gretchen Dinin" Subject: Sour milk and bread Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:58:57 -0400 Dear Ken You asked about a use for whey when your milk sours. I make yogurt for us as well as bread, I save all of the whey from the yogurt in the freezer and defrost it to use instead of water in my basic everyday bread which is a whole wheat honey bread. I also use it in a whole wheat pita bread. Maybe someone else can tell you what to do with the curds. Good luck - Gretchen Dinin --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.12 --------------- From: "Sandy" Subject: re: mixers Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 16:11:59 -0400 Mike, I have the Bosch Universal mixer. I love it for mixing dough. I don't know how it compares to the Concept though. Sandy in Maryland --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.13 --------------- From: Mike Subject: Bread Additives and a minor problem Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:52:54 -0700 (PDT) I see a lot of bread recipes that call for the addition of Vital Glutten or Dough Enhancer. Some have both added.Which one are you better off using? Is the end result the same using either one. The Vital Glutten is cheaper to purchase than the Dough Enhancer. I'm looking for the best bread that can be made and if the Enhancer does a better job then so be it, that's what I'll keep. No need to have both is there? I also see asorbic acid (vitamin c) powder in a few recipes. Do I need a science degree to make a loaf of bread? I hope someone out there with more knowlege than I have can enlighten me. I tried making a 100% whole wheat bread in my Zo V20. I wasn't very happy with the end results. First of all the loaf didn't rise anywhere's near the size it should have and it was lop-sided. The dough seemed to stay on the side of the last paddle that it was kneaded on. What's up with that? Looks like you have to baby-sit the machine until it goes into the bake cycle so you can remove it and form it into what a loaf of bread is supposed to look like. All my ingredients are fresh-used honey as my sweetner-addad dough enhancer-saf yeast-KAF whole wheat flour-oil-water-salt. I think that's it. Any suggestions? (Yeah I know, take up cookie baking!) NOT!!!!!!!!! Thanks for listening. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.14 --------------- From: "Jean Gortney" Subject: FW: Crockpot Bread Recipes for Beverly Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:47:12 -0400 The Rival Crockpot has several bread and cake recipes using their Bread 'n Cake Bake pan. When you buy the crockpot, it usually has a coupon to send for the pan. I don't know if you could use a coffee can or something. The pan has a lid with air holes. This one of their recipes: RICH WHITE BATTER BREAD 1 pack active dry yeast 1 teaspoon sugar 1 cup very warm water 2 teaspoons salt 1 tablespoon sugar 1 egg 1 tablespoon butter or margarine 2 1/2 to 3 cups flour Mix yeast, teaspoon of sugar, and water. Let stand about 10 minutes, until it bubbles. Add salt, tablespoon sugar, egg, butter, and 1 1/2 cups flour. Beat 2 minutes with electric mixer. Stir in remaining flour until mixture forms stiff dough. Pour batter into well-greased Bread 'n Cake Bake pan, cover, let rest 15 minutes. Put in crockpot, cover, and bake on high 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 hours. For raisin bread: Substitute 1/4 cup brown sugar for 1 teaspoon white sugar. Add 1 cup raisins and 1 teaspoon cinnamon with flour. I have made it and it works, but don't give it any extra rising before putting in the crockpot. Some of their cautions: Don't open crockpot to check during the first hour of cooking. If adapting your own recipe, don't fill pan more than 2/3 full. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.15 --------------- From: "Steven Leof" Subject: New resource for bakers in the UK Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:59:43 +0100 Stumbled across a new resource for bakers in the UK created by artisan baker and author Dan Lepard. Go to . Regards Steven Leof --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.16 --------------- From: mjhammel@comcast.net Subject: Re:Mixing dough: another tall tale continued... Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 20:52:17 +0000 Ed, The other day I made some french bread with the recipe in the book that came with my Kitchen Aide (except I substituted olive oil for butter). The recipe said to beat with the dough hook for 3 minutes. Like you, I thought...no way, that can't be long enough. But I did it anyway. The bread was great. Some of my best yet. Who New? Mike Hammel --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.17 --------------- From: Ed Okie Subject: Mixing dough - another tall tale? Part II Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 10:48:09 -0400 Last week's post on the bread-list raised more than a few eyebrows (if not hackles) when I presented results from a well-tested abbreviated dough mix method. One reader was inclined to suggest "it's impossible," others hinting "it'll only work with well-hydrated (wet) dough mixes." The issue: would a scant 2-minutes of dough mixing work... instead of the near-universally advised 8, 10, or more minutes? One statement in my original text particularly raised eyebrows: "....Apparently, "proper gluten development" is not what it's cracked up to be! In this series of tests the "proper mixing" theory exceeds reality. Along the way a few window-panes got shattered." And the challenge came back: "OK.. now try it with a sandwich bread of around 60% hydration..." As an athlete well-steeped in testing mind and body, I couldn't resist another can-it-be-done? Two trials this week testing the mini-mix using low hydration levels. But before I could start with sandwich bread making, frankly, I had to search for a sandwich bread recipe... not exactly top-drawer material in my kitchen. Bright idea: borrow the owner's manual from a neighbor who has a Zojirushi V-20 bread machine, page 13. It was so-o-o generic they even named it, "Basic White Bread." What could be less charming? Hydration (flour/water ratio) calculated at 64%. Gave it a try, but in place of the bread machine's 20-minutes of mixing I applied the "mini-mix" method, a scant 2-minute ingredient mix in my Kenwood mixer. This was preceded by 30 seconds of gathering the dough into a shaggy mass with a spatula. Surprisingly, not a bit of problem blending, rising or baking in an oven. Highly successful! Taste was decent, considering this was plain-Jane bread - but twice as good as that sold in the local grocery stores. Still curious, the next day I searched the King Arthur recipe website and came up with their version of everyday-generic. KA applied a lofty title: "Classic Sandwich Bread." I tweaked the recipe by adding a fraction more flour to arrive at a perfect 60% hydration level. Otherwise, I did it "by the book." The same 30-second gathering of ingredients into a shaggy mass, followed by "the impossible" 2-minute-mix in a Kenwood mixer (at low "1" speed no less!). After 2-minutes the dough was rough in appearance, but blended. Followed directions precisely: a 90-minute (about 2.5X) rise, then a 60-minute proof in pan (about 2X rise), baked at 350F for 35 minutes using a cold-start oven (my choice, not the recipe). Once again, the scant 2-minute mini-mix method worked like a charm! Very attractive bread that had taste appeal (in context of sandwich bread). The above trials clearly suggest that the mini-mix method not only works superbly well with highly-hydrated Ancienne breads, it works well at the low end of the hydration scale. Back to square one: the "proper mixing necessary for gluten development, etc," those oft-stated 8, 10, or more minutes we've held close to our breasts for years and years. The above trials continue to suggest that gluten theory exceeds reality. If 200-to-400% less mixing produced basically the same bread - or worse, I'd certainly revert to the well-worn gospel mandate for 8-10 minute mixing times. But the startling fact: I'm getting - better and bigger - breads with the abbreviated mix method, French baguettes or Ancienne! Less time. Better breads. I came away from the overall sandwich-bread experience with one lingering thought: We bakers often make the entire baking process too complex, too convoluted, directives filled with jargon, often tangled with many involved steps. Magazines and books are filled with examples. Yet, the Bone-Idle-Lazy club's approach toward "simplicity" remains noteworthy. It is my humble opinion that we should approach our bread baking from the perspective of "how little can we do," not "how involved can we make it." - Ed Okie --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.18 --------------- From: "linda grande" Subject: Sandwich Bread Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:04:03 +0000 For Glenn, who needed a bood sandwich bread for her Breadman Ultimate: Sandwich Bread 1 1/4 cup milk (I use 1/4 cup powdered milk and 1 1/4 cup water)* 2 tablespoons butter or margarine -- or olive or canola oil 1 1/2 teaspoons salt 3 tablespoons honey or brown sugar 3 cups bread flour 1 cup rolled oats (I use instant oats) 3/4 cup raisins, currants, or dried sweetened cranberries 2 teaspoons instant or active dried yeast You can make this in a bread machine, using a mixer, or by hand. The bread will become quite puffy but not quite doubled when it is ready to bake. I find it bakes best in the oven. Bake until the internal temp is 190 F. for about 30 to 40 minutes. If you prefer a lighter crust tent the bread with foil for the last 15 minutes. The original recipe came from King Arthur but I have modified it very slightly. The bread is not sweet at all, in my opinion. It has a nice crumb and makes wonderful sandwiches. (*Comments are not mine, but belong to the author of this recipe) -Linda --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.19 --------------- From: "linda grande" Subject: Sandwich Bread Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:09:43 +0000 Here's another sandwich bread recipe for Glenn. This one is my personal favorite. I make the dough for it in my Breadman Ultimate, then bake in the oven. Ultimate Sandwich Bread Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 1 cup water 2 tablespoons oil 1 3/4 cups bread flour 1 cup whole wheat flour 1/3 cup rye flour 2 tablespoons vital wheat gluten 2 tablespoons sugar 1 teaspoon salt 2 teaspoons yeast Place all ingredients in your in the order specified by your manufacturer. Select basic or white cycle. (Or shape, bake in conventional oven at 375F for 35 minutes.) -Linda --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n034.20 --------------- From: Berta Stevens Subject: Tomato paste bread Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:55:30 -0700 I baked this bread in my machine last week. The dough seemed very stiff & I added 1 tbsp. of water, probably should have added 2 tbsp. Would it be better to increase the milk rather than add the water....perhaps it makes no difference? My baking is always in the bread machine, throw in and let it go! Have found lots of good hints thru the Digest. --------------- END bread-bakers.v103.n034 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2003 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved