Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:53:17 -0600 (MDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v103.n033 -------------- 001 - "Barda" - Re: about flour quality 012 - Mike Subject: Re: Flour - is every bag the same? Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 14:31:23 -0500 Ed Okie, thank you so much for a most informative posting. I needed that. Joe Barda --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.2 --------------- From: Ed Okie Subject: Mixing dough: another tall tale? Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 15:38:50 -0400 Read any book, magazine, or recipe, and the advice about dough mixing is near-universal: Do it 6 minutes, 8, 10, or more. Some suggest the "window pane" test for checking "proper mix." Others use the descriptive phrase "until smooth as a baby's bottom." The advice spins one unspoken theme: Do it this way or else the world will end! Equally confusing: the advice inevitably is wrapped around words of "proper gluten development," "protein structure," etc. The jargon is enough to keep even the enemy confused. My baking buddy on the other side of the ocean suggested a different direction. "Two minutes with a spatula is all you need," he exclaimed! "Yeah, sure," I thought. His short-mix advice (he's a Brit who sometimes adds "bone-idle-lazy" to his colorful text) actually resulted from an unrepairable mixer. When it broke he was, well... up the proverbial creek without a paddle, dough-hook in this case. His sole remaining option: mix it by hand (sloppy 85% hydration Ancienne dough). "2 minutes! That's all you need." For years my standard machine-mix method was 6-8 minutes at medium-low speed. I protested, "Every book written says we're supposed to mix ingredients 6-10 minutes, if not more." "Two minutes," he said. "Try it." I did. It works. And works well! I was a bit stunned. Comparable to the moment a child learns "there really ain't no Santa Claus?" Subsequent "how short can we go" trials got the spatula blending time down to a brief few seconds followed by a scant 1-minute machine mix. Not the greatest of baked bread resulted, but it did work! Next came a carefully controlled A-B baking trial: 500-gram batches, cantankerous French baguettes made from a poolish, all-purpose flour, 62% hydration. One bowl gently blended/folded with a spatula for 30 seconds and then machine mixed for 2 minutes at slow speed. The second bowl machine mixed for a full 10 minutes, the last 3 minutes at a faster speed. It was well-whipped and smooth. Slightly cooler water was used for the 10-minute batch; ending dough temperatures held to within 1 degree, 80F. The mini-mix method produced a dough ball with nary a "window pane" in sight. It was rough in appearance. The thoroughly mixed dough was smooth as a baby's behind. Two hours rise followed, each ball divided into 3 baguettes, stretched and rolled to final shape, a 45-minute proof, then baked side-by-side in separate trays (6 baguettes). Here's the revelation: The 10-minute mix won in only one category: a smoother appearing crust (if smoothness is a criteria). But the crust was softer, had a somewhat rubbery chew. The 2-minute mix had noticeably better oven spring (height and width). Crust was more crispy and baked slightly darker. Crumb interior was more open, lighter. A clear winner. The 2-minute mix retained slashes on the crust better than the 10-minute mix. Crumb flavor difference of mixing methods: none. The score: about 4-to-1 in favor of the short-&-sweet mixing method. Bigger and better baguettes. Next step: will the minimum-mix method work with higher-hydrated Ancienne dough? (multiple trials ranged from 75% to 90%, plus several types of flours sampled). The minimum-mix method won every time. Better bread. Less effort. I was a "bone-idle-lazy" convert. Appreciably less mixing not only works... it works very well, if not better! It goes 180-degrees opposite what we read in the books, or have heard since day-one. Apparently, "proper gluten development" is not what it's cracked up to be! In this series of tests (carried out on both sides of the ocean) the "proper mixing" theory exceeds reality. Along the way a few window-panes got shattered. - Ed Okie --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.3 --------------- From: "Glenn" Subject: Wheat-less in Seattle (okay . . DENVER!) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 18:05:31 -0600 Hi All. I bought a Breadman Ultimate and I'm just not thrilled. The machine is nice and seems like a good value but the bread just doesn't taste as good as it did when I had my old Hitachi. And that paddle! It ruins nearly every slice in the loaf! Does anybody have a really good basic white bread recipe? I've been getting by with an old egg bread recipe but it's dry and falls apart too easy and is, in general, un-exciting. I'll take anything at this point! I never did try any 2 pound loaves even though this machine is capable. I've been using all 1.5 pound (3 cups of flour) recipes. Thanks, Glenn. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.4 --------------- From: jhon J Boggs Subject: starter for sourdough potato bread? Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 05:07:15 -0700 (PDT) I am looking for a starter for sour dough bread made with potatoes either (mashed or in). Thank you. Harold Bogard bojobo2000@yahoo.com --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.5 --------------- From: fred smith Subject: Re: Flour - is every bag the same? Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 05:27:36 -0400 >From: Ed Okie >Subject: Flour - is every bag the same? >Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2003 18:50:37 -0400 > >Is flour different bag to bag? "Looks" doesn't give a clue. White is >white. More irony: General Mills (maker of the Gold Medal brand) produces >an extensive line of professional grade flours manufactured to very tight >tolerances (unlike the retail Gold Medal brand), sold in 50-lb bags. It's >the perfect solution. "Harvest King" was the specific "just what I need" >flour. And then my dream unravelled: A local major-chain grocery store >couldn't special order it. SYSCO, a national food supplier could get it, >but only if they purchased a full pallet. Just what I need, a huge pallet >of flour stored in the kitchen! > Around here (Boston area) there's a bakery wholesaler who will willingly sell to "walk-ins". Though I haven't bothered to make the trip for the last few years, many a time I've gone there and bought one or two bags of flour, or a bag of yeast, or 15 lb of rolled oats (they will even split a 50-lb bag of oats for you! They sell General Mills' unbleached white "Rex Royal", which is a nice all-purpose unbleached white flour, and I've made many a hundred loaf with it. I have to admit that I like KA's all purpose better, and that's what I've been using in recent years despite the higher price, but the Rex Royal is nevertheless decent stuff. Anyway, my point is, you may be able to find a wholesaler in your area who will let you buy one 50-lb bag at a time. Good luck! ---- Fred Smith -- fredex@fcshome.stoneham.ma.us --------------------------= --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.6 --------------- From: Dan Erwin Subject: Kenwood contact info and success story Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:21:25 -0500 The contact information for Kenwood: Kenwood Ltd New Lane Havant Hampshire PO9 2NH England Tel: +44 23 9247 6000 Fax: +44 23 9239 2400 I was able to repair my speed control assembly at home. I finally did have a direction to Kenwood in England. It was by phone. I was amazed by the assistance I received, not from a repair person, by from an engineer. He gave me specific information that I needed for the reassemgly of the parts, plus, with a digital camera he e-mailed me two clear photos of the speed control area that showed precisely how the parts should be assembled----plus, he made a second call that same day to offer any answers concerning questions I might have. When I had reassembled the speed control successfully I noted that the knob still was gradually being worked out during kneading. When I told him about that he told me that a plastic part on the knob was likely to have been damaged when I pulled out the knob in the first place, and so he offered to send that part to me with no charge. That's what I call SERVICE ! None of this would have occurred if it wasn't for the Bread-bakers Digest. A member who lives in London gave me the phone number, but I received several other members who also contacted me to attempt to deal with the sicuation. Thank you to all of your help. Dan Erwin --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.7 --------------- From: "renzo_ri" Subject: Finding Harvest King FLour Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 06:44:38 -0400 Ed wrote: >It's the perfect solution. "Harvest King" was the specific "just what I >need" flour. And then my dream unravelled: A local major-chain grocery >store couldn't special order it. SYSCO, a national food supplier could get >it, but only if they purchased a full pallet. Just what I need, a huge >pallet of flour stored in the kitchen! Ed, you've helped me, especially with the cold start method, I hope I can give you a helpful suggestion in return. Harvest King is my flour of choice also. I can get it, one 50-pound bag at a time , from a nearby bakers' supply store. When I called to ask if they sold to individual bakers, they said sure but they would not deliver. No problem with that and the last bag was only $9.16. renzo in ri --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.8 --------------- From: Anita Burns Subject: Consistent results with homemade bread flour and Giustos Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:04:04 -0700 Hi, I have been reading the list for some years but rarely post. I have been reading the discussion about consistent results being difficult because of the differences in flour. I have had really good results with Giustos unbleached flour (not bread flour). I order it in 25 pound bags and make my own bread flour. Here is the recipe: For each 6 cups of flour, add: 1 tbs gluten flour 1 tbs diastatic malt powder 1 tsp ascorbic acid. This works for whole wheat flour too. I got the recipe from "Smart Bread Machine Recipes" by Sandra L. Woodruff. I don't bake in my bread machine anymore but use this bread flour recipe anyway. It works great. I keep all my flour and the additives in the freezer. I know some people say not to do this, but it works for me. I even keep my yeast in the freezer and it stays potent for years. Anyway, Giustos, at . Seems to be a wonderfully consistent flour. It is used by a lot of commercial bakeries and by restaurants that bake their own bread. Anita Burns shanti3@usa.net --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.9 --------------- From: ASager9078@aol.com Subject: Re: difference in flours Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:24:12 EDT Regarding the difference in flours... Thanks very much for the information there. Ihave also experienced the difference in flours while baking a quick bread. One brand of flour; three tries at the quick bread ended up with collapsed loaf AFTER it had cooled off. I tried one more time with a different brand and had no problems. I never knew there was a difference until this happened and now have read your mail. Thanks again. Jean --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.10 --------------- From: Jeff Dwork Subject: Tomato Bread recipe credit Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 18:55:14 -0700 The tomato bread recipe in last week's digest (v103.n032.3) is from _Bread Machine Magic_ by Linda Rehberg & Lois Conway. The book title was in lower case and the authors' names missing. This will be fixed in the digest archive. Someone asked about the loaf size - this recipe is for a "medium" loaf - about 1 1/2 lb. There is a new revised edition of _Bread Machine Magic_ available: ISBN 0-312-30496-X. Get it at your local bookstore or . Jeff --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.11 --------------- From: Honey Subject: Re: about flour quality Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 13:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Ed.. Regarding flour quality, I have had this argument for 5 years now, especially regarding Gold Medal. I used to use Gold medal for more than 40 years, and then recipes started failing, my cakes, my breads etc. I changed yeast, I changed baking powders etc, never thinking it was the flour. IT IS THE FLOUR! I will never buy another bag of gold medal. I called them, they sluffed me off....it can't be their flour, it's the way it's stored, it's this, it's that, but not THEIR flour. Baloney! I switched also to King Arthur bread flour for breads. I LOVE it. I have not had ONE failure with it. I switched to their all purpose for pies and cakes and cookies... no problem. They use a much higher quality flour. It takes a little adjusting to time, my breads need to cook a tad longer, but I love it. I will pay extra for it. I have used it in Arizona and in Texas, and I have had no problem. Pillsbury has been taken over by the gold medal people, so I won't even bother using it. I hope this helps someone. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.12 --------------- From: Mike Subject: Mixer decision Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 18:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Hi, Can anyone out there share some info on mixers. I'm looking into either a Bosch Concept 7 or a Dimention 2000. I'm leaning towards the Bosch. Is it a better choice? Thank you for your time. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.13 --------------- From: Lorna Campbell Subject: Italian Pizza Flour Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 21:04:02 +0100 Hello experts, I'm hoping someone can tell me what the 'special' part of Italian pizza flour is. I was chatting to a chef at our local pizza place, and he said that the benefit was that you didn't need to leave the dough to prove overnight before use. I know it's not high gluten/bread flour as he was most scathing about the stiff dough which results if you try to use that. Thanks a lot, Lorna Glasgow Scotland --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.14 --------------- From: "Susannah Ayres-Thomas" Subject: Re: Dough conditioners Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:19:12 -0500 Ladies and Gents, I'm working on finding out about dough conditioners, but I need to know what kind we're looking for. LeSaffre actually makes 10 kinds of dough conditioners. The product descriptions are as follows: Under SAF Pro, there are: Croustilis--Designed for retarded dough to ensure a smooth crust by reducing blister formation Lesoft--Improves the crumb softness adding extended shelf life Performance--No-time dough conditioner that improves dough performance West Coast Sour--Sour concentrate added to flour And under IBIS, there are: Ibis Yellow (no description given) Ibis Silver--aids machinability and improves volume; highly concentrated Ibis Red--used for bake and rise process and pre-proofed bread Ibis Purple--improves volume by strengthening the dough Ibis Green--Clean label dough conditioner that improves dough tolerance Ibis Blue--Used for pre-proof Viennoiserie and long shelf-life frozen dough There is more detailed information about the products in a PDF format available at www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com I suspect that what we're interested in is most likely the Lesoft, but don't know for sure. Please get back to me on what seems the most like what you're looking for, and I'll get onto calling the company for price and so on. Susannah --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.15 --------------- From: FREDERICKA COHEN Subject: sourdough starter Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:19:27 -0700 (PDT) My Carl's 1847 sourdough starter arrived today and I am ready to go! I want to make sure that I am doing the correct....and delicious!...thing so I hope that the Tarheel Baker will send forth experienced instructions from North Carolina. He's the one who suggested it. However, I would appreciate advice from any one else who has experience with this type of dry starter. My granddaughter has offered to bring the cheese and the coffee for sample time. Thanks, Fredericka --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v103.n033.16 --------------- From: "Kenneth R. Buser" Subject: Sour milk and bread Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:33:53 -0400 Occasionally I have to deal with a quantity of soured milk. I use what I can in pancakes, bread or muffins. As the milk sours, I realize it is turning into curds and whey. My question is, if I were to pour it into a cheese cloth covered bowl and allowed it to separate, could I use the the solids or the liquid and what for? Thanks in advance. Ken --------------- END bread-bakers.v103.n033 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2003 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved