Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 04:19:14 -0600 (MDT) -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v102.n035 -------------- 001 - "H. Bell" - baking stones, time and temps 014 - Reggie Dwork Subject: Yeast instant and otherwise Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:54:38 -0700 I want to be a home baker. I just bought the Bread Bakers Apprentice. Frustrated from the get-go. Is there a difference between dry yeast and instant yeast.? None of the yeast packages in the grocery store are labeled "instant" yeast. Where do I buy it and what is a brand name? The book does not make a clear distinction. Harold Bell Lodi CA. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.2 --------------- From: "Ilene Rachford" Subject: Overnight rises Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 07:44:02 -0400 There's been several posts on overnight rises. Could someone help me out on this? This would be perfect for me...our mornings have been cool, and I'm usually up by 6. This way I could get back into baking before it got too hot. I use a bread machine to do the two kneads, then finish by hand. Appreciate any help you can give! Thanks, Ilene --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.3 --------------- From: Nifcon@aol.com Subject: Pitta bread Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 09:36:29 EDT > Hi there, > > Yesterday I made pita bread for the first time, using a recipe from the KAF > > Baking Sheet series. While the taste was excellent, the bread never really > > "poofed" up like a balloon during the baking process. After cooling, it > did not separate into clean layers easily and was crisper than I expected. > > I baked the bread on a baking sheet placed on a preheated baking stone for > 2 minutes and then moved the sheet higher in the oven for 5 minutes (500 F) > > as directed in the recipe. > > Does anyone out there have any thoughts on what I should do differently > next time? > > Thanks! > LP I find I get a massive expanson, into a thin walled balloon of bread if I make the bread a little slacker than most recipes - I normally aim for about 68 - 70 % hydration - and slide the discs of dough directly onto the hot stones - also, your recipe may say this already, spritzing the top of the dough before it goes into the oven keeps the top surface a little softer. John --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.4 --------------- From: POACHER2@aol.com Subject: Re: steam in the oven Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 09:40:01 EDT John I have used the baking pan in the bottom of the oven before, I have yet to try the stones. I did notice at a local DIY store that they had 16"sq (40cm sq) tiles for sale, I am considering using those. I noticed you are in Yorkshire, many years ago I left Derbyshire for the states. Victor --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.5 --------------- From: Pete Lukow Subject: Re: pita bread Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 07:30:43 -0700 (PDT) > From: "Paschetag" > Yesterday I made pita bread for the first time, > using a recipe from the KAF > Baking Sheet series. While the taste was excellent, > the bread never really > "poofed" up like a balloon during the baking > process. After cooling, it > did not separate into clean layers easily and was > crisper than I expected. > > I baked the bread on a baking sheet placed on a > preheated baking stone for > 2 minutes and then moved the sheet higher in the > oven for 5 minutes (500 F) > as directed in the recipe. > > Does anyone out there have any thoughts on what I > should do differently > next time? The oven temperature is good; it needs to be really hot so the steam can puff the loaves up. The loaves also need to be thin. I roll them once, let them rest, then roll them once more right before popping them in the oven. I've never heard of moving the loaves around as your recipe suggests. It seems it'd cool things off enough to cause trouble. When I bake my "khubz," I bake them directly on the stone for 3-4 minutes, at 500-550 F degrees. Hope this helps, Pete, Two Tree Bakery --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.6 --------------- From: "Baker_ia" Subject: baking Pita Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 09:45:18 -0600 HI there I am not sure if I am remembering correctly but the info I had about baking Pita did it one summer an sold them at a farmers market. the instructions said to heat the oven at 500 and bake the pitas as close to the heat source as you could and if it was a gas oven to lay the pan on the bottom of the oven. I did not have a stone in the oven never heard of them then. (sheltered life) SO I am guessing you should of just left them on the baking stone. It takes the high heat to make them puff and seperate. Worth a try Arlene in Iowa --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.7 --------------- From: "Leigh Davisson" Subject: RE: Alfred Bakeware Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 07:47:40 -0700 > Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 21:24:19 -0400 > In a previous post by someone (whom I can't remember) was a web site for > the Alfred Bakeware. The site is . The > products, which were developed at the Ceramic Engineering program at Alfred > University are all ceramic, and have very good release properties. I > purchased a standard bread pan, and am very pleased. > Larry Klevans Yes, I love their pans, too. Such a great texture from loaf pans. I recently bought the long, thin La Cloche from King Arthur, and baked a loaf of struan in that. It rose right to the top of the lid, and because of the clay the entire crust was so crunchy and a very nice shade of brown. It worked well, too. The bread was longer and narrower than your typical loaf pan; great pan. Both of those pans take significantly longer to bake, though, and now that our temperatures are hovering in the 100 degree area, the oven is closed for a few days. ;-) Leigh --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.8 --------------- From: Brown_D@pcfnotes1.wustl.edu Subject: Re: A Question on Pita Bread Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 13:12:28 -0500 To get the best puffing for pita/pocket breads, I found the most important things was getting the thickness of the breads right: too thick and they don't puff, too thin and they are crackery but not puffy. About 1/8th inch worked well for me. Also, one reference I remember claimed that any additives beyond flour, water, yeast and salt could impair the rising, so sweeteners and oils should be minimized. The dough should be quite soft, and not allowed to dry out after shaping--you need the surface flexible to puff. I've gotten good results using my baking tiles in a preheated oven at 500 degrees, but don't move the racks during baking. At that temperature, they are baking through in just a few minutes anyway. The recipe that worked from me is from the Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book: 2 T active dry yeast 1/2 C warm water proof the yeast. 6 C whole wheat bread flour (I'm sure white flour would be equally good, and I've made this with a wheat mixture that was closer to all-purpose flour gluten content with good success). 2 1/4 t salt 2 1/2 C water mix as usual and knead the soft dough well. Let rise twice, punching down in between. Start the oven preheating during the second rise to 450-500 F (again, I prefer the tiles). divide the dough into 2 dozen pieces, round each and let them relax a few minutes (covered). Roll a few out and when you've shaped one batch, bake until puffed and no longer shiny but not until golden or crisped (I check them within 3-4 minutes of going in. They actually suggest baking on the floor of the oven, which isn't practical for an electric oven like mine, but either preheated tiles or a preheated heavy baking sheet can be used. While they're baking, roll out another group. Hope some of that helps! Diane Brown brown_d@kids.wustl.edu --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.9 --------------- From: Barbara Ross Subject: Baking in a clay pot/pan to create steam? Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 14:56:44 -0400 Has anyone tried baking bread in a clay pot? I got one and you have to soak the potwater and lid in, put the bread in there cold, and put it in the hot oven. It's supposed to create the steam. I haven't had any fabulous results. Has anyone else tried it with good results? Barbara Ross, --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.10 --------------- From: Barbara Ross Subject: cold rising bread Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 14:59:12 -0400 I'm not too experienced in this. When you cold rise, do you do the first rising warm, then the second overnight in the fridge, or just one in the fridge. I'd like to try it but would like some guidance. I usually make dense, crunchy dark bread with all kinds of nuts and seeds (going for as high protein as possible), also with some soy flour, so I wonder if a long cold rise would make this chewier. Thanks for any experiences you might pass on. I'm loving this list! Barbara Ross, NJ --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.11 --------------- From: Larry Klevans Subject: Tufty Ceramics correction Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:35:20 -0400 Oops, a typo on the address for ceramic cookware; Should read http://www.tuftyceramics.com/ --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.12 --------------- From: "David A Barrett" Subject: Re: Victor - Hearth Baking Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:44:18 -0400 >After 30 seconds I open the door, spray the sides and top of the oven >quickly and generously (the pressure sprayer comes into it's own here) and >close the door. I repeat twice more at 30 sec intervals and then let the >loaves finish baking. John, I use almost the same technique. I crank my oven up to full heat for about 1/2 hour before the bread goes in, and I figure that this deals with the 50 F or so drop that I'll experience putting the water and dough in the oven. I've got a convection oven, and it has a vent at the top and you can see the steam pouring out of it while the bread bakes. I stopped mucking around with the spray bottle, though. One thing I noticed was that no matter what I did, once the water was in the bottom I couldn't get the oven to go over 450 F. The reason, I believe, is that the constant influx of new steam at 212 F was forcing the hotter air and steam out the top of the oven and at about 450 F the rate at which new steam was being produced was about equal to the maximum output of the elements in the oven. Now, to my mind, this is enough steam and I would wager that more steam is lost opening the oven door than will be generated by the subsequent spraying. I find that I lose about 25 F each time I open the oven door. Also, I use just less than 2 cups of water on a jelly-roll pan and it is all gone by about 10-12 minutes. This means that about 1/6 of a cup of water evaporates each minute, and if you compare that the amount of water you are adding with each spritz it makes the spray bottle seem even less important. Remember that steam in hot air is invisible, when you see vapour that is because the steam is hitting cold air and it is moving back to a liquid, so you shouldn't be fooled if you look in your oven and don't see any steam. For me, I just put the dough in, add the water shut the door, turn the oven down to 450 F and watch the steam pour out the top. There is so much steam coming out it shorts out the touch-pad electronics on the back of the stove. I use the microwave timer now because once when I used the one on the oven I couldn't turn it off, so I had pull the oven out from the wall unplug it and plug it back in again to stop it beeping at me. I don't recommend rolling a 450 F oven around the kitchen. thanx, dave. --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.13 --------------- From: Okie Subject: baking stones, time and temps Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:51:29 -0400 Much has been said and asked lately about baking tiles/stones. Mike Avery posted this note on last week's bread-bakers list: "As to baking with tiles, I usually leave my tiles in the oven. I've covered both racks with tiles. The only drawback is it takes the oven longer to heat up than it does without. I was in a hurry this morning to make some sourdough blueberry muffins, so the tiles came out. The muffins also came out ... nicely, that is." Here's my two-cents worth on the issue, a reply to Mike's letter; possibly a fresh perspective: Mike - I've travelled the baking-stone and peel route in the past, and more than once. Yes, it does impress guests. But I inevitably arrive at the same conclusion: more hassle than they're worth, another of those "the secret to success" expectation items. Big issue to oven stones/tiles is the heating time-delay as you mention. I live in Florida where outdoor heat, especially during summer, is a problem (I'm being kind with words) - keeping the home cool and comfortable is a concern. Extensive baking adds to the dilemma. Pre-heating an oven (for the stones' sake, 45-60 minutes) contributes appreciably to home-interior heat. Artisan French baguettes is my ongoing pursuit. The very successful method (trial and error) I've developed would be pure heresy if mentioned in baking-guru circles, decidedly contrary to virtually all cookbook advice. And I don't use baking stones, nor peels. To wit: To minimize heat in the kitchen I bake baguettes from a "cold-oven" start. The "pros" (and conventional wisdom) would say this is impossible. I can only say - it not only works, it works very well! The oven walls, top and bottom, are thoroughly misted/sprayed with water (in a cold oven this is simple to do, not a bit dangerous... as it is with a 500 F oven). My convection oven requires about 12 minutes (from cold) to reach the 450 F setpoint. The three baguettes (900 grams total weight) bake for a total of 23 minutes. Sometimes I even shut the oven off the last few minutes and let it "coast in" (internal temperature drop is negligible). The above heresy-method doesn't eliminate heat sent back into the kitchen - but it does greatly reduce the problem compared to the 45-60 minute preheat method "at the oven maximum" of 500+ degrees... as is often advised. All this absorbed thermal energy now gets dumped back into the kitchen - demands that the air-conditioning system run longer to offset the extra heat. I find that the cold-start method works very well; the "conversion" factor is roughly a 15% longer baking time than whatever the formula's suggested time. Popovers, as an example: 380 F for 40 minutes changes to 380 F for 48 - results are identical. Baguettes change from 450 F and 18 minutes... to 450 F and 23 minutes. I experience considerable success with otherwise notoriously-difficult French baguette baking. And my kitchen and home stay a bit cooler, less electricity used. I suspect your mornings' stoneless success with sourdough blueberry muffins - demonstrates the very same principle. In a commercial continuous-duty baking production line, stones do provide value... but not in a home environment. We as consumers are simply looking for "the magic answer," that "secret to success." Various stores offer (if not hype) these products to, well... fill consumer demand. We consumers are gullible lot. - Ed Okie --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.14 --------------- From: Reggie Dwork Subject: Soymilk Bread Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 19:15:57 -0700 * Exported from MasterCook * Soymilk Bread Recipe By : Serving Size : 32 Preparation Time :0:00 Categories : Bread-Bakers Mailing List Grains Low Fat Amount Measure Ingredient -- Preparation Method -------- ------------ -------------------------------- 2 1/2 C Soy Milk 2 Tbsp Honey 1/4 C Soy Oil 1 Tbsp Active Dry Yeast 1/2 C Warm Water 1/3 C Defatted Soy Flour 2 C White Bread Flour 5 C Whole Wheat Flour -- Or More If Nec 2 1/2 Tsp Salt This could easily become your daily bread. For a change of pace, try kneading herbs, nuts or dried fruit into the dough, or shaping it into small loaves, rolls or free-form rounds. Bring soymilk and honey almost to a boil. Remove from heat, stir in oil, and let cool to lukewarm. Dissolve yeast in warm water and let sit about 5 minutes, until bubbles begin to form. Combine soy flour, white flour, 4 cups of the whole wheat flour and salt in a large mixing bowl. Add the yeast and soy milk mixtures and stir well. Add the remaining whole wheat flour as needed to make a soft dough. Turn out onto a lightly floured board and knead until smooth and elastic, about 10 to 15 minutes. Put dough into a lightly oiled bowl, cover and let rise until double in bulk, about 2 hours. Punch down, shape into two loaves and let rise again in lightly oiled bread pans until dough reaches the top of the pan, about 45 minutes. Bake for 35 to 40 minutes at 350F, until golden and bottom Yield: 2 loaves (16 slices each) Serving size: 1 slice Per serving: 129 calories, 3 g total fat (0.4 g sat fat), 5 g protein, 23 g carbohydrates, 2.7 g fiber, 176 mg sodium, 0 mg cholesterol Exchanges: 1-1/2 starch - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.15 --------------- From: Sandy Subject: yeast Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 08:41:56 -0400 I bought some yeast that I would like some tips using. I have always used the yeast that is in the little envelopes. This is Fleischmann's Instant Yeast and it is in a vaccuum sealed, 16 oz. brick package. Like I have seen some coffee packaged. Should I store it in the pantry before it is opened, since it was just on the shelf in the store? Should I refrigerate it once opened like it says or put it in the freezer like I've heard some of you talk about? (I'm not sure if you all were talking about this kind of yeast) And finally, how do I use this? Does it need to be proofed? How much do I use? I'm so glad to have this list as a resource! Thanks everyone. Sandy in Maryland --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v102.n035.16 --------------- From: Reggie Dwork Subject: A visit to Mugnaini's Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 00:38:08 -0700 We arrived at Mugnaini's and were met by Susie Dymoke, Culinary Director and Andrea Mugnaini, Owner/Manager. Upon entering the basically one room, showroom/culinary classroom, we were enticed by the aroma of freshly baked bread and burning wood. We were astounded to see the wood burning ovens lined along the wall - some still burning from the class that had just left and some ovens that were further along the burning process. We followed Susie into the office area and she told us the unique story of how the ovens Mugnaini imports came into being. Before World War II, every village in Italy had a communal wood burning oven where villagers would bring dough to bake. Many of these ovens were destroyed during the war. The government commissioned Sylvio Valoriani to design an oven suitable for a single family. These ovens are still in production and are imported by Mugnaini. We then proceeded to the area behind the oven wall to learn how they are built and about different models. Susie realized our heads were spinning by this time so we proceeded back to the front and over to the tables. She asked us if she could cook for us. Well, who could pass up a deal like that after we had been drooling for the last 30 min or so? She made individual pizzas for us with the most astonishing toppings on top of the most flavorful dough that I have ever had. It tasted wonderful ... sure wish we had gotten a copy of the dough recipe to make here in my oven!! I KNOW it wouldn't turn out like the wood burning oven flavor but would definitely be more flavorful then my poor wimpy pizza dough :( What surprised both Jeff and I was that the pizzas took only 3 1/2 - 4 min for each to bake. While we greedily stuffed ourselves she explained that the oven isn't just for breads but it is "one" kitchen appliance that can take the place of "all" of your kitchen appliances. We learned you can grill, slow cook, braise etc all on this single piece of equipment, actually do everything you do now with all your present kitchen appliances. 'Course one has to learn to cook all over again and plan meals according to how hot the oven is in the cooling down process. It takes 3 - 4 days to completely cool down. So the first day you do things like roast, grill, bake cookies and wonderful hearth breads. The next day you could braise things and start slow cooking. Menus and recipes ran through my head. In my mind I was almost at the market and Jeff was starting the fire ... sigh ... back to reality. Then one of us asked about classes - they have quite a variety of classes including Kurtis Bagley and Hugh Carpenter among other chefs. Craig Ponsford had just taught a bread class recently. We had the pleasure of taking a class by Kurtis a long time ago and we remembered what an excellent instructor he is. We realized the quality of instructors they have as support. People fly from all over the country to take classes. Some menu items that are prepared for classes in the ovens are baked egg dish with cannelini bean & cherry tomato ragout, clay pot Vietnamese glass noodles with beef, roast pork tenderloin with dried tropical fruits, stretched cracker bread and classic pita bread ... are just a few that caught my eye as I scanned the class listings. We spotted the products room and of course I 'had' to go shopping. After purchasing some "needed" pots etc we sat down and asked about prices. Susie explained everything to us very clearly. Since it was my birthday I really wanted/"needed" this piece of equipment. We finally left trying to figure out where to put it "when" we purchase it. If you would like to see this incredible wood burning oven go to www.mugnaini.com and I bet at the end you will be figuring out where to put it when you purchase it. OR better yet ... if you live in the Bay Area or are coming this way for vacation or on a business trip really try to schedule a bit of time to come over and see these amazing ladies and their fabulous ovens. You won't be sorry you came by. Reggie & Jeff --------------- END bread-bakers.v102.n035 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2002 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved