Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:35:38 -0700 -------------- BEGIN bread-bakers.v096.n030 -------------- 001 - ltsilver@borg.com (LT Sil - REQ: Jewish Rye (Sourdough) For B Machine 002 - Ron and Sheila Kimball Subject: machines/crumbs Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 16:08:12 -0700 >From: t4v8f4jv@coastalnet.com (warywoda) >Subject: machine vs feel, feel, feel >Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 16:25:02 -0400 > > It was wonderful to read something that didn't portray bread machines >as the be all, end all. I love making bread by hand, and have developed a >following for my bread. I do things with dough that can't be done when it's >inside that "magic box". > With the olympics going on, we can see that there is something to be >said for hard work. Like the athletes achieving there medals, a golden loaf >that is a result of my talents, hard work and prayer is much better than an >over-yeasted, under-touched loaf. > I love the recipes put out here, but I do always have to cut back on >the yeast as I start from a sponge (and it never fails to work). I would >love to here from other bread makers who make their own bread. > I bake my own bread at least once a week, I just happen to mix the dough in a machine! I have had one failure in almost 2 years, compared to very few successes pre machine. I have 2 small children and a husband with 2 jobs, so my time is much better spent than mixing an kneading. I almost always bake it in the oven, on a cookie sheet, no stone, no pan of water, no misting, no bricks..., it is fabulous and is requested by all of our friends when we go there for dinner. > >From: "Therese Klodnicki" >Subject: bread crumbs >Date: Sat, 3 Aug 96 16:05:19 UT > >Does anyone know how I can make and store bread crumbs using my leftover or >stale bread. I would like to have plain bread crumbs available similar to if >I bought them in the store. I suppose I need to toast them. Does anyone else >do this? > >Thanks, > >Terry I have toasted them, sometimes I just slice it up and leave it out over night. I have a big ziploc in the freezer, I add all kinds of bread to it and about once a month I use the food processor to make crumbs, I season them, you don't have to, but anyway, I put parma. cheese, various herbs, salt and pepper, drag chicken through it and bake or panfry, yum! I also use them in meatloaf. I store them in a tupperware type container in the freezer. Sheila and Ron Kimball Trey 3/17/94 and Jacob 3/11/96 kimball@oz.net --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.3 --------------- From: tommy@dnrc.bell-labs.com Subject: tools are made, born are hands Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 22:48:32 -0400 I look at this way. People who make bread by hand are after the "experience" of making bread. People who make it in a machine are after the "experience" of eating it. You can choose whichever experience is more important to you. Tom --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.4 --------------- From: Yishay & Yaara Subject: Re: Digest bread-bakers.v096.n028 Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 23:20:33 -0400 (EDT) )I'm new to the list so please forgive me if this topic has already been )discussed. I'm getting ready to buy my first bread machine and would )appreciate any advice. I can get a good deal on the Toastmaster model (the )one that also makes butter) and wanted to talk with someone who actually )owns one. Feel free to Email directly. Also, I was wondering about the )economics of baking bread using a machine vs. buying bread at the store. )Can you really save money by doing it at home after buying the machine, the )ingredients, the electric useage, etc.? I have a Toastmaster machine (the 1194 model, not the one that makes butter) and I am happy with it. I did have some trouble with bread sticking to the pan, I was told to send the machine to the ocmpany for inspection and just a few days ago I got a new one. As to saving - I didn't calculate this in a very accurate way but if you consider that 1. bread in the US is extremely expensive 2. when you buy yeast in bulk you can save a lot (from my experience, bulk yeast costs 1/10 of Fleischmans jars) you end up with low cost good quality bread. Yaara --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.5 --------------- From: nancy lee Subject: Re: DAK Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 08:52:55 -0400 (EDT) I received a flyer on the latest DAK breadmaker. Did anyone else also receive this. I definately like my DAK and am seriously thinking about updating to the new one. It has a humidity control, plus other features that I think would be great to have. Let me know what you think. Nancy Nancy White Lee | Music Library nlee@bgnet.bgsu.edu \\| Bowling Green State University Phone: 419-372-0210 )##) Bowling Green, Ohio 43403 FAX: 419-372-7996 --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.6 --------------- From: Herbert Foster Subject: Re: Digest bread-bakers.v096.n028 Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 09:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Re: 015 - Marcy Lawrence Subject: ABM vs. hand Date: Mon, 5 Aug 96 10:03 EST I have a Kitchen-Aid mixer, the low-end version, and love it for making breads and doughs. But when my mom offered to get me an ABM, I quickly said yes. I'm the mom of 5 little girls, all 5 1/2 and under, and I just don't have time to bake bread everyday. Now I bake a loaf in the ABM every 2 days or so, and I'm saving the money I would have spent on endless loaves at the grocery. So for me, an ABM is worth it both as a time saver and a money saver. I've found ways to adapt my recipes so that my bread is "soft" like the bread you find in stores. Also, I refuse to buy any bread with preservatives, so I'm really saving when I make my own. However, at holiday times and other special occasions, I love making bread with my Kitchen-Aid. It is relatively quick and simple, and you get a differently-textured loaf. I always do my pizza doughs in the Kitchen-Aid. If I were really a stickler on natural grains and time-saving, I'd get a Bosch Universal machine that would grind my grain and give me loaves to bake in my real oven in 95 minutes, start to finish. This would be great, but I think $200 for an ABM is cheaper and works better for me than $500 for a Bosch. I may change my mind sometime in the future, but right now, my ABM is great for everyday baking. I think I've achieved a nice balance. There certainly are advantages on both sides! Who can argue with that wonderful smell you get in your house, no matter how you do it? Jenny jenw@iquest.net --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.8 --------------- From: atmcdaniel@alpha.nlu.edu Subject: Sourdough Starter Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 10:12:20 CST Does anyone have the recipe to start the starter?? Other starters too. How 'bout the brandied fruit starter too??? Nell --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.9 --------------- From: Irwin@prodigy.com (MR IRWIN H FRANZEL) Subject: Mills, proof yeast, ABMs, more yeast Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 12:53:14, -0500 There has been a recent discussion about grinding grain. In 1993 we decided that we might be able to work some upper body exercise into our bread baking program for some of our rehab clients. The logical next step was to get hand mills for them. We found an excellent mill made by Back To Basics, located in Utah. We got several of these mills and provided them to some of our clients for whom upper body exercise was appropriate. While they usually avoided doing exercise for their own sake, many had developed a love affair with their Zojis that justified the effort. To our surprise and delight, the bread produced from freshly ground wheat was so much better than that made from commercially milled whole wheat flour that the demand for mills grew enormously! Many of our rehab clients were unable to do the work of grinding grain so we investigated other kinds of mills and milling attachments. We found that there were many good mills available covering a wide range of price and ease of use. The two were not necessarily related. Our special requirements asked for a machine that was easy to use, easy to clean and easy to adjust for whatever purpose it was being used. The first good mill we found was made in Germany, it is called Jupiter and sold for about $300. It met all our requirements but was pricey. We checked out the Magic Mill, made in Salt Lake City, Utah. This is an excellent mill, especially when fairly large quantities of grain are needed to be ground at once. It has three major problems for our application: 1). It is difficult for anyone with even minor arm or hand problems to disassemble. 2). It is very difficult to clean. 3). The noise level produced when grinding hard grain was such that we determined it was potentially harmful to hearing. Nevertheless, the Magic Mill would be a good bet for a group of people who wanted to grind a few pounds of grain quickly. We feel that it should be used with ear plugs. The mill we finally settled on for our rehab use (and we have sold a lot of them since that decision) is the Miracle Mill. It is manufactured in Poland and is almost a copy of the Jupiter Mill. The Miracle Mill uses molded nylon body, feed screw and plastic hopper in place of die cast aluminum. The motor power is comparable and both machines (the Miracle Mill and Jupiter) use investment cast, stainless steel, precision grinding burrs. One large knurled coupling is easily removed and all parts of the Miracle Mill may be washed with soap and water and dried. Three advantages come from the design of the Miracle Mill: 1). It is relatively quiet. (More later.) 2). It has indexed fineness of grind settings, so that exactly the same type of grind may be reproduced each time. 3). It is relatively inexpensive. We sell these Magic Mills for $150, shipping and handling included, in the U.S. That is 20% less than the suggested retail price and we arent obliged to charge sales tax if you are not in Florida. The process of grinding grain is inherently noisy. It takes a lot of energy to break down the hard shell of, for example, hard, red, winter wheat. The grinding process produces heat and uses power. When we tested the Vita-Mix, we felt that it was too noisy when grinding grain, as others have reported here. The uniformity of the grind was variable. Our tests of the Kitchen Aid attachments demonstrated three points: 1). It was very difficult to adjust the setting. 2). The attachment itself cost about $130. 3). It required special care while cleaning because it is made of steel. Is it worth the trouble to grind your own grain? If you have a chance to try a bread baked in your own bread machine that is made from grain you have just ground, you will know the answer with the first bite! Were so sure of ourselves that if you buy a Miracle Mill and try it, you can return it for a full refund if you dont agree! We include a recipe for a 100% whole wheat bread made from freshly ground hard, red, winter wheat, that was preferred by everyone who tasted it. Lynne Miles asks about what made her yeast so slow? As with all other living things, there is a limit to the duration of life. Individual yeast cells do die. Such an event is usually the result of moisture getting into the container. The amount of yeast added in recipes is usually enough to get over any deficiency in the number of active yeast cells present. The way to know how your yeast is doing for sure, is to proof it. It is a simple procedure and should be done before discarding any quantity of older yeast. Heres how to proof your yeast. (This is for active dry yeast.) 1. Fill a water glass half full of warm water, 100 to 115 deg. F. 2. Stir in 1 teaspoon of sugar 3. Sprinkle 1 teaspoon of yeast on top of the water. Within 5 minutes, things should start to happen. After 15 minutes there should be a head on top of the water, like the head on top of a glass of freshly poured beer. If there is, the yeast is OK. If there is not, the yeast is inactive and should be replaced. To Jeffrey Hamelman, Reggie's note tells it all! There are many people who, for one reason or another cannot deal with the physical process of hand bread making! On the other hand, it might be very informative to you Jeffrey, to try making a loaf of bread in an automatic bread machine yourself. My wife was an avid bread maker. When we started the rehab bread baking program, I offered her a Zojirushi S-15 (now S-15A) to her as a birthday present. She said, I dont need it and I dont want it! I suggested she try it. One day, she did. Now she makes bread without the mess, without the cleanup and without the dedication of the time. To Bob Stedfeld, I appreciate your comment. You should never hesitate to argue with any expert. You may know something he doesnt and if he or she are really experts, theyll appreciate your input! Everything you say about my fussiness and the yeast storage method I proposed, is correct. You yourself point out, your method for storage keeps the yeast functional for 6 to 9 months. The fussy way I proposed keeps it functional for over four years! Is my fussiness justified? It depends upon how quickly you use up your yeast! Irwin/Delta Rehab/Using Zojis --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.10 --------------- From: CHEFLZ@aol.com Subject: ABM VS OVEN Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 14:19:48 -0400 WHY USE AN AUTOM. BREAD MACHINE! I LIKE TO COOK(& EAT :) ), BUT HAD A STROKE IN 1990 THAT LEFT ME PARALYZED ON MY LEFT SIDE(I WAS LEFT HANDED),SO I HAD TO GET A HELPER TO KNEAD & SHAPE,& BAKE BREAD FOR ME(I LIKED BAKING BREAD!). NOW WITH AN ABM, I CAN DO IT BY MYSELF(WITH SOME STRUGGLING), SURE, I NOW USE AN AUTOMATIC SYSTEM, BUT I CAN STILL JUDGE WHETHER THE MIXED LOAF NEEDS EITHER MORE LIQUIDS, OR FLOUR, PLUS I CAN BOTH SMELL IT BAKING,& TASTE A FRESHLY BAKED LOAF. THEREFORE, EVEN IF I USE AN AUTOMATIC MACHINE,MY BREAD-BAKING JUDGEMENT IS STILL USED! SURE, MY SITUATION IS MORE UNIQUE, BUT I STILL APPRECIATE THE ABM'S DEVELOPMENT!! LARRY ZIEGLER(CHEFLZ@AOL.COM ) --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.11 --------------- From: Marta Martin Subject: Welbilt Machine Parts Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 23:32:30 -0400 Hello, A few months ago I got a second bread machine....an older Welbilt model with a bubble glass dome top. I really like it since it makes bigger loaves than my other machine and well, I like making more than one loaf at a time! PROBLEM- I seem to have misplaced the little red rubber band/ring that goes on the bottom of the machine under the bread pan. Since I bought the machine 'used' I did not get all of the paperwork with it. Does anyone know where or how I can get the part? Thanking you in advance, Marta Martin www.citynet.net/marta --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.12 --------------- From: "BNATU.US.ORACLE.COM" Subject: hints & tips for baking bread?? Date: 06 Aug 96 09:45:38 -0700 Hi, I am new to this group as well as the process of bread making. I had never baked a bread in my entire life until we bought a bread-maker a couple of months ago. We have a Breadman and so far I have only experimented with the recipes taht came with the machine. Unfotunately, the crust comes out too hard and my kids don't seem to like it. My question is, if I chose to use the bread machine to do the kneading and rising and then use a regular oven to bake the bread, at what temperatures and for how long should I bake a 1.5 pound bread loaf?? The same question goes for making pizza also. Also, can anyone recommend good bread-making recipe books? You can reply to me directly at bnatu@us.oracle.com -Thanks, Sharmila --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.13 --------------- From: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us (Bonnie Briscoe) Subject: Bread machine purchase? Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 00:14:49 -0500 Herldine M. Radley wrote: I will be purchasing a bread machine for the first time and need your input. I can only spend around $100-$150 for the machine but I want the best machine for the money. I have lurked on this list for around three months and I know all of you have reasons you like or dislike a machine. Please e-mail me your likes and dislikes. ---------------------------------- I have a West Bend (model 41040X) which I purchased in January, 1995 for about $150 at Sam's Club. One of its features that I most appreciate is the half-hour warm-up at the start of the regular and whole wheat cycles. Because of this feature, I don't have to be so precise about water temperature or the temperature of other ingredients (although I do try to come close to what I would use if making bread by hand). One thing I wish it did have is a cool-down feature after the bread is done; this machine has a "keep warm" feature instead, and a few times when I wasn't around at the end of the baking cycle, the crust got softer than I like it due to the retained heat and moisture in the pan. Another nice feature, if you can find it, would let the machine resume the cycle after a brief power interruption. My West Bend won't do that. I know at least 4 people who bought Oster machines at Pamida or Target stores. One likes the machine just fine (but her husband hates "things" in his bread, so she just makes whole wheat--how boring!!). Another person thinks the bread always comes out too dark and hard on the bottom. And one (to whom I recommended the machine based on reviews of it in newspaper articles and Consumer Reports) had to take it back to the store because it died after about 6 months. She later said some of her relatives had similar disappointments with their Oster machines. So I guess I'd be cautious about buying an Oster bread machine, even though I have other Oster appliances that I like. My West Bend keeps chugging away -- I use it two or three times a week. But because of the praise the Zojiruchi has received on this list, I think that's the kind I will want to get after this one dies. Hope this helps. Bonnie * * * * * * * * * * * * * Bonnie Briscoe internet: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us Briscoe & Associates -- Editorial Services & Training Program Development 500 East Third St. phone: 320-589-1258 Morris, MN, USA 56267 fax: 320-589-1754 Language is all that separates us from the lower animals-- and from the bureaucrats. * * * * * * * * * * * * * --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.14 --------------- From: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us (Bonnie Briscoe) Subject: bread crumbs Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 00:14:55 -0500 Terry Klodnicki asked: Does anyone know how I can make and store bread crumbs using my leftover or stale bread. I would like to have plain bread crumbs available similar to if I bought them in the store. I suppose I need to toast them. Does anyone else do this? -------------------------------- Here's my method: I dry out the bread slices completely by placing them in a single layer on a baking sheet in the oven. I set the (electric) oven to 150 degrees for 10 minutes or so, then turn it off and turn on the oven light. The heat from the light bulb will dry the bread evenly over a period of several hours without toasting it. If the bread is really moist at the start, turn the slices over occasionally to promote even drying. After the bread is completely dry, put it in the blender 1 slice at a time and grind it into crumbs. Store the crumbs in an air-tight container (I keep mine in a cool but not refrigerated place). Bonnie * * * * * * * * * * * * * Bonnie Briscoe internet: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us Briscoe & Associates -- Editorial Services & Training Program Development 500 East Third St. phone: 320-589-1258 Morris, MN, USA 56267 fax: 320-589-1754 Language is all that separates us from the lower animals-- and from the bureaucrats. * * * * * * * * * * * * * --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.15 --------------- From: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us (Bonnie Briscoe) Subject: Asiago Cheese Bread (updated) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 00:14:59 -0500 Here is an updated version of the Asiago Cheese Bread I posted to this list several months ago. The original version had an egg but no oil; I like the flavor of this version better. I have also recently tried replacing 1 cup of the bread flour with Gold-n-White flour, which has all the wheat germ of whole wheat flour but not the bran. (I added 1 tablespoon of gluten flour along with the Gold-n-White.) This flour added another layer of flavor to the bread which I liked very much. ASIAGO CHEESE BREAD 9 ounces water 2 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil 1-1/4 teaspoons salt 1 tablespoon sugar 3 ounces finely shredded Asiago cheese (1 cup lightly packed) 1 ounce shredded Romano or Parmesan (generous 1/3 cup) 1/2 tablespoon caraway seeds (optional) 1/2 cup yellow cornmeal 2-3/4 cups bread flour or unbleached flour 2 teaspoons active dry yeast Place all ingredients in pan of bread machine in order listed, or in the order recommended for your machine. (I usually toss the grated cheese with the cornmeal before adding it to the pan, to decrease clumping.) Set controls for Basic bread with medium crust and start machine. Makes one 1.5-pound loaf. NOTE: This bread makes wonderful garlic toast. After cutting it, spray very lightly with olive oil from your EcoPump, then sprinkle generously with granulated garlic powder. Toast in oven until as brown as you like it. (The rainforest-friendly EcoPump is a spray bottle that you fill half-way with oil, then pump in air using the special top--like a bicycle pump--so you get the benefits of a fine aerosol mist without any chemicals. If you can't find one where you live, contact California Olive Oil Corp., 134 Canal Street, Salem, MA 01970 Tel. 508-745-7840; Fax 508-744-3492. I'm not related to this company in any way--but I have three EcoPumps and use them every day.) Bonnie Briscoe * * * * * * * * * * * * * Bonnie Briscoe internet: bbriscoe@infolink.morris.mn.us Briscoe & Associates -- Editorial Services & Training Program Development 500 East Third St. phone: 320-589-1258 Morris, MN, USA 56267 fax: 320-589-1754 Language is all that separates us from the lower animals-- and from the bureaucrats. * * * * * * * * * * * * * --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.16 --------------- From: CNU!AUSTIN1!zschmg@cnucorp.attmail.com (Schmalzried, Gerald) Subject: Yeast and Salt Mixing Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:47:00 +0000 In chemistry lab, we were taught this rule: Do not pour water into acid. The reason for the rule is that introducing the first drop of water (or similarly benign fluid) into acid can potentially unleash all the chemical energy the acid has to offer, resulting in splattering or worse unpleasantries. Pouring the acid into the water, however, means that the first drop of acid is diluted in a virtual swimming pool of water, and while the rest of the acid is poured in, the mixture slowly rises to the desired acidic concentration. The process is con- trolled and not as prone to splattering. The bottom line is that we never want to subject an unsuspecting water droplet to a high concentration of acid nasties. I wonder if similar reasoning could be applied to our yeast and salt mixing debate. One yeast cell happening across a teaspoonful of salt is probably a bad situation for the yeast since, like the splattering acid, the entire salt deposit is free to do its worst. But if the salt is first dissolved in liquid, or at least dispersed in some flour, I'll bet its destructive power is reduced, and more yeast would sur- vive such encounters. That said, I propose that Irwin modify the yeast and salt experiment: 1. Put 1 teaspoon yeast into each water glass 2. Add 1 teaspoon sugar to each glass 3. Add 1 teaspoon salt to ONE glass 4. Add only a tablespoon of warm water to each glass 5. After a minute or two, fill each glass halfway with warm water 6. Sprinkle 1 teaspoon salt into the OTHER glass 7. Stir 8. Wait 15 minutes With this modification, I think we better model the case in which yeast and salt, side by side at the bottom of an ABM bread pan, receive a small amount of moisture (the lion's share of which was absorbed by the flour) before finally being stirred up and evenly distributed by the kneading cycle. I think the oft-suggested solution of separating the yeast and salt by putting the flour in between them works because by the time our unsuspecting yeast cell encounters some salt, the salt is no longer a highly concentrated deposit, but a lone granule adrift in a sea of flour. Does this make any sense at all? I dreamed it up in the office; I didn't get to try it out in the kitchen. (By the way, I really like this list...keep up the great work!) --Gerald --------------- MESSAGE bread-bakers.v096.n030.17 --------------- From: Ritterhaus@aol.com Subject: Naans Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 19:15:22 -0400 For Sadie and Tom, here's a recipe for Naans from"The World Atlas of Food" (A Gourmet's Guide to the Great Regional Dishes of the World) 1984, Exeter Books, Distributed by Bookthrift(Simon & Shuster) ISBN 0-671-07211-0 Naans - Flat Leavened Bread Traditionally cooked in a tandoor, a large clay oven, this North Indian bread gets its teardrop shape from being stuck on the wall of the oven and stretching while it cooks. Makes 4 Naans 2 cups all purpose flour 1/4 tsp. salt 1 tsp. sugar 1 tsp. baking powder 1/2 tsp. baking soda 1 egg 4 Tbl. yogurt 5 Tbl. milk 1 Tbl. sesame seeds 4 Tbl. ghee or melted butter Sift the flour, salt, sugar, baking powder and soda into a bowl. In another bowl, mix together the egg, yogurt, 4 Tbl. of the milk and half the ghee or melted butter. Make a well in the center of the flour mixture. Pour in the liquid mixture and work into the flour until the mixture forms a dough. Knead the dough on a lightly floured surface for 15 minutes, or until it is smooth and elastic. Dust with flour if the dough is sticky. Pat the dough into a ball and put it into a bowl. Cover the bowl with a damp cloth and set it aside in a warm, draft-free place for 3 hours. With floured hands, divide the dough into 4 equal pieces. Shape them into balls. Flatten the balls and then pat and pull them into flat oval shapes about 6 inches long. Preheat the oven to 450 degrees. Brush one side of the naans with the remaining ghee or melted butter and the other side with the remaining milk. Sprinkle the sesame seeds over the naans. Place the naans on baking sheets and bake for 5 minutes or until they are golden and firm to the touch. Remove from the oven and turn the naans over and brown them under a hot broiler. Serve hot. --------------- END bread-bakers.v096.n030 --------------- Copyright (c) 1996-2000 Regina Dwork and Jeffrey Dwork All Rights Reserved